Anyone else out there who doesn't produce enough milk?

[babbler]

Hi I have a 4 month old son, and always planned to breast feed fully from the minute he was born.I was very fortunate he latched on properly from the start. However after 2 weeks of this the poor little mite had lost about 11oz of weight. The midwife then made me feel so inadequate as a mother by showing through expressing the milk i had that I was only producing a few mls. I was devistated, tried everything to produce more milk but couldn't. I had to give my baby formular, which he is stioll on and thriving on it, but still giving the breast at every feed, in the hope of giving him something good from me.Anyone else had the same experience, because i feel alone in this, and get upset when i see mums breast feeding fully when out.

That came across wrong - the nct counsellor was (as a mater of fact) absolutely lovely (no help, but lovely and very suportive). I went to another bf group as well. After the counsellor checked my latch, we had a very frustrating (long!) discussion during which we went round and round with the slogans:'supply demand'; 'even a drop of modified milk dilutes the benefit, though of course its your choice'; 'babies cry for lots of different reasons, do you have a problem with hearing your baby cry?'; 'ignore the centile charts, babies come in all shapes and sizes'; 'milk supply will dwindle as soon as you bring in 'modified milk' (why not be done with it and call it 'Frankenstein milk' - ).

Left me and dh a bit bewildered, because we seemd to end up fielding lots of prejudgements about us (think Dh was quite hurt by the pointed discussions of 'dad can sometimes help out too').

I know of others who thought she was excellent, but I already knew everything that she told me, and having it told again, but more forcefully, didn't fix my problem. Think I've ranted at you before about his Tiktok.

You see relatively few people at a very stressful time. Think it really magnifies the impact that good/bad advice/support has from any one individual. I don't want it to come off that I'm holding a grudge. Just a point of note that things didn't happen for me the way that several sources said more or less dogmatically: I was in real trouble with the milk, and formula did not kill my supply.

The HV bf counsellor made a lot of me being a mathematician and wanting 'answers'. Perhaps something in that - I kept asking for books, and contacts with people who had been in similar situations to give me more info about the unusual cases. Got nowhere - NCT had some books, but not there or right then. But was surprised there wasn't a database being kept of names and key details. I came to both places actually asking for advice or support on how to mix-feed effectively - find it difficult to believe that I'm the first person to have done it in my area! The gripe that I had with NCT bf group (which I've discussed with you before), is that a large hall full of contented lactating mothers can be intimidating and not that constructive.

Perhaps they could wear badges 'Phillipa - cracked nipples' .

When I went, I took along a hard won bottle of EBM (to try to show off that I was still fighting the demon milk), and was informed by one of the other ladies that 'of course, feeding from EBM a bottle isn't the same as breat feeding'. Which it isn't, true. But the comment did make me decide the group wasn't for me, which was perhaps a shame, as the counsellor was intelligent.

Sorry for long, unedited message. If I had more time I'd write shorter .

Thank you for writing about your experiences Kif. The NCT do keep a "special experiences register" the main problem is getting people to go on it.

A bfc is bound by confidentiality in the same way as a HV/midwife and you will be able to understand that someone goimng through the same sort of situation won't be thinking as far ahead as going onto the register.

Your post has made me think. After the difficulties I expreienced (ineffective feeding, hysteria and breast refusal) I trained as a peer supported but I think that I should contact the register. Perhaps you could do the same to help someone else.

Incidentally I too uses some formula at this time. It was the job of my advisors to let me know the risks and possible things that may happen but it was felt that rather than me give up breastfeeding completely, it was better to supplement. So yes, I too feel that formula saved breastfeeding.

I didn't know about that register, JulieF - interseting info which I think I'll follow up. Would actually be very glad if anyone contacted me - would make all the reading and 'figuring out' and badgering people for information, feel more worthwhile if it meant someone else could have an easier path.

I'm holding out hope that if i have another baby, it'll all go fine, and I won't need all my dark arts!

Notquiteacockney, you said

'I'm really skeptical about the whole "not producing enough milk" theory'.

Do you have any idea just how hurtful those word are? In essence you are saying that people like me are lying when we say that this is the case.

I worked and struggled long and hard with both of mine. Pictures of my dd show her to be on the verge of emaciation. Not skinny, emaciated. She was feeding constantly, my latch on was fine, my attitued was very positive, I enjoyed bf very much, but I wasn't making enough milk. I did the lot. nothing worked. In the end I fed her when my breasts were at their fullest. She fed non stop for 2 hours. I then offered her a 4 oz bottle. She has never had a bottle in her life and this was at 2.5 months. She drank all of it.

You you tell me then, why did that happen? If it wasn't that I couldn't make enough milk for her? Bad enough that it happened, without someone saying I am making things up.

I have heard that the quantity of bm produced is genetic. It never occurred to me that I would have any problems feeding, as I remember my mum's extravagant supply with my sister, and she has also told us that until my brother was one or two months old she used to go to the SCBU (whatever it was called in those days) and express for the premmies there because she had so much that my brother was struggling. This was in the days before milk banks, or freezers at home to store ebm. It was only when I was struggling to feed baby number 2 that my mum mentioned that my grandmother had had to bottle feed my dad because she had no milk.

I managed to breastfeed baby no 2 but it was quite a struggle. Her weight crept up very slowly, and plateaued at about 4m. Rather than give her solids, I topped her up a little with formula last thing at night for a few weeks. I don't think I have a particularly good supply - I'm certain that I inherited my milk-producing genes from my dad's side, and not from my mum's!

Oh, and BTW, although I mixed-fed ds until going over to formula complely at 5.5m, I only just last week finished breastfeeding dd - at 22m! Yes, it may sound boastful, but I feel very very proud of myself, given the problems I had with feeding. And I hope that my experience may encourage other mums!

Hmb, I don't think NQAC meant it like that. I read her comment as 'I don't believe health professionals when they tell women they aren't producing enough milk'. IE it may happen in very rare cases but health profs tend to bandy that line around as if it's very common indeed.

I sympathise hugely with you on this one babbler, as I had big problems breastfeeding. Had to have an ECS and spent the first 2 days of DDs life wired up to all sorts of things, pumped full of drugs and not able to move much and very difficult to hold her, added to which I had very bad baby blues. Poor little mite screamed the place down probably cos she was hungery and my milk took ages to come in and when it did she was so impatient she wouldn't suck properly. The whole thing wasn't helped by very conflicting advice from the hospital midwives and I kept being tweaked and prodded and just got myself in such a stress about the whole things that I didn't know whether we were doing it right or not!!
Back at home, after a few days of total stress and dd losing weight, I announed to the visiting midwife that I was going to put dd on the bottle as I just couldn't cope anymore and couldn't bear to see her so hungery. It had got to the point where I didn't want to pick her up in case she wanted feeding! Midwife was actually very supportive suggested that I use formula and top her up with expressed milk while I had it. DD took to the bottle really well and it was such a relief to see her actually having a feed - also go dh more involved. I did this for 8 weeks before the milk totally dried up and feel somewhat happier that she did actually have some of my milk as well!. I felt 9and still do) like total failure as a mother - ie. not being able to give birth naturally and then not being able to do what is supposed to be the most natural thing in the world - bollocks is it!!!
If ds is well and happy and gaining weight then you have done your best and don't feel bad about it - it's more important that you have a loving bond with him that how you fed him!

I think many problems with birth and breastfeeding result from bad preparation - often by the health professionals we trust to know what to do ! Eg many c-sections result from bad positioning during labour (and before labour), which exhausts the mum and ends up in a spiral of complications. I admit not all cases are like that but many are. And many cases of problems with breastfeeding are because we get the wrong advice. So don't blame yourself and lable yourself as a failure - you did the best you could in the circumstances. It doesn't make you a worse mum, and doesn't mean it will happen again next time.

I don't know of any real evidence that milk supply is genetic - though how you would test for this, I don't know! What is not really widely known in the 'real world' as opposed to the world of research is that women' storage capacities differ. This has been demonstrated with scientifically controlled investigations. Some women don't 'hold' a lot of milk, and their babies are likely to feed more often, in order to get the same amount of milk. It's as if you were going to a restaurant for your meals every day, and you only ever got titchy portions. You would end up going several times every day - but if you got massive platefuls every time, you wouldn't need to go as often. Babies appear to adapt very well to their mothers' capacities.

The breasts make milk in response to milk being removed from them, too. So the more often the milk is removed, the more often it is replaced, which is why mothers with smaller capacities make (in total) the same as mothers with larger capacties.

Anyone interested in more can do a search on Peter Hartmann breastfeeding.

Meant to say - maybe breastmilk storage is genetic, though.

There is also the complicating fact that prolactin receptors which store the milk are not something you are born with, but are laid down in the early days of bf in response to the baby's feeding.

So it can never be totally genetic.

ive been told i dont produce enough milk...i think its udderly ridiculous......

Thanks Mears. The reason I am concerned about my milk supply is because I had breast surgery years ago and was warned it might impact on my ability to bf. This is why LLL suggested domperidone. As I can express quite alot of colostrum alread (baby due next week) I am hoping this time around I will have more success anyway. Is fenugreek as effective?

bunny2 - fenugreek was effective for - I honestly think I would not have managed to express long term for my twins without it !

I'm sorry it has all been so stressful for you Babbler. I do hope things improve. It is such a big thing to want to bf and then struggle with it, there are loads of people here who obvioulsy understand and sympathise.
I struggled of r a while but had the best support ever and finally did well.
I'm sure mears and tiktok will be able to help you. They have been here giving such good advice and support for ever- I hope you manage to get some more practical advice soon.
Don't give yourself a hard time. Love your little boy and take each day as it comes, it's such a lovely time when they are that little, don't let the bf stuff get in the way of enjoying him. (I know from experience that it can get really hard)-

babbler, how are you doing? I know the thread has veered away a bit (like conversation) from the original points you made. Hope some of it has helped you in some way.

Babbler, you have my sympathies as I went through the same thing. I just couldn't produce enough milk for whatever reason. I'm convinced now that that was the problem. DD had no problems latching on from the start. I'm still angry that we are told anyone can breastfeed. I can still remember DD going frantic at the breast at 6 weeks old, desperate for food. There was one time when I spent the whole evening and into the night constantly swapping her from one breast to another. I was desparate and so was she. Then I bought formula. I would breastfeed her first, then if she seemed to need more I would top her up with formula, which is what you are doing now. You are doing the right thing, so do keep it up. Mixed feeding is a practical solution which works for both mother and baby. I feel angry still that I didn't get any practical help. No one suggested mixed feeding as a solution - I worked it out for myself. I just wanted someone to acknowledge that yes, some women can't produce enough milk for reasons unknown. I did feel a failure but now I feel proud that I persevered.

But tiktok (sorry to keeping veering the conversation ) why in that case did my two very rarely have feed-a-thons? Apart from the first couple of days when dd wanted to feed every hour or two, neither of my babies ever wanted to feed more often than 2.5 - 3.5-hourly, and soon settled on 3-3.5-hourly until about 6m.

PC, the Hartmann research would probably show you have an ample storage capacy (unrelated to size of breasts, by the way) coupled with babies whose temperament meant they were happy and content not to have feedathons!

Not all babies have feedathons - can't remember any of mine doing it more than occasionally - but some babies have one (or more!) every night

yes thankyou for everyones encouraging notes. I know i'm not alone in this now.However feel saddened by unhelpful and cruel and scare mungering comments on other threads towards women who have to use formular.

hmb: I'm sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough. I was trying to say, if you are having supply problems, it may not be that you cannot produce enough milk, it may be that breastfeeding isn't working right in a more general way.

I say this because DS1 gained very slowly, despite lots of feeding. I thought this meant I didn't produce enough milk, and was ready for the same thing to happen with DS2. Instead, he feeds much less, and gains beautifully. My boobs are fine, they clearly just work better with DS2 than they did with DS1, for whatever reason.

As edam says, (some) health professionals like to say "you're not producing enough milk", because it's easier and quicker than actually investigating the problem. And I'm not saying that nobody has an underlying milk production problem, I have no idea about this, I'm just saying that it isn't always the case.

tiktok: I'd been wondering about the storage capacity thing - is it only set with your first child? Is it reset with every pregnancy?

Good Q, NQC.....I don't know, and I don't think it has been looked at. The research comes from a special computerised method of measuring breast fullness, which was based on mining engineers' methods of assessing how much coal there is in a mine : ) They looked at different breasts and noted the different storage capacities of each one....I can't even guess whether this is 'set' at birth, in pregnancy or when.

Trust me, everthing was investigated, and I breast fed in part for six months. As I said, I enjoyed bf but realy didn't make enough milk. This was not helped by both my children projectile vomiting.

I have no angst about the thing, dd is now a delightful 7 year old and ds is 4.5. One thing does vex tho. When people simply refuse to believe me when I say that I didn't make enough milk. As you are now. Trust me, I was there are you were not.

I'm sure its not that people don't necesarily beleive you hmb, its just that the not enough milk thing is told to women so often when that is not the case. Obviously there are rare cases where that is true.

Its like a friend of mine, her baby had a very rare condition that made him intolerant to breastmilk (she had previously b/f 3 other children, overcoming tongue tie etc. and is a real earth mother type)no matter what she did or didn't eat.

Jasper didn't have enough milk with her first two and didn't really get it going, for her 3rd she dealt with it differently (using domperidone for a while)... and fed him (I think) well passed his 2nd birthday !
So sometimes you can turn things around.