Anyone else out there who doesn't produce enough milk?

[babbler]

Hi I have a 4 month old son, and always planned to breast feed fully from the minute he was born.I was very fortunate he latched on properly from the start. However after 2 weeks of this the poor little mite had lost about 11oz of weight. The midwife then made me feel so inadequate as a mother by showing through expressing the milk i had that I was only producing a few mls. I was devistated, tried everything to produce more milk but couldn't. I had to give my baby formular, which he is stioll on and thriving on it, but still giving the breast at every feed, in the hope of giving him something good from me.Anyone else had the same experience, because i feel alone in this, and get upset when i see mums breast feeding fully when out.

by the way nct have a breastfeeing network for helping people to breastfeed (not only members) - so they definitely know that it isn't always easy for everyone. Maybe mail them and let them know how their advertising affected you - maybe they will consider changing the emphasis.

Thanks for all the support, and encouragement. Breast feeding to begin with was the most stressful time for me as it was, my ds was feeding every 2 and half hours and feeding for over an hour at a time, before falling asleep exhausted. I gave extra water as he wasn't producing many wet nappies and hadn't had his bowels open for several days. I had sore nipples and felt exhausted.Every time the midwife came round they would watch me breast feed and check position, and would say it was perfect, my son latched on perfectly from day one. I stressed my concerns, but no one seemed bothered until he had lost 110z by day 14, then I was told to give formular (by a midwife over the phone), i was devestated and cried and cried, my alternative was to go up to the hospital to see a paed dr, who consequently i guess would have told me that i would be starving my baby if not.The breast feeding mw at the hospital never even spoke on the phone to me, even though she knew of my problem.my ds was getting so thin, that i had to give in, i did read all the books!!, and as i say as my self and my dh as health professionals we know quite alot already.Well my son still likes the breast, and he never gets the bottle without the breast first, but he seems very happy with this, and something to make you laugh my breast leak when he's feeding - whats that all about!!!.

Just to clarify: some women really do not produce enough milk. The way to show this isn't by expressing - and in any case, even if the mother is managing to express gallons, it matters not a jot if this isn't getting into the baby for whatever reason!

A baby still nowhere near birthweight at 2 weeks, and continuing to lose weight (as babbler's baby was) , is really not getting enough. I'd also expect this to be reflected in the milk supply - by that time, the supply may well have reduced (though not irreversibly, fortunately - though it can be very hard work to turn the situation around, and some women never achieve a full supply with a difficult start like this).

The early signs of breastfeeding not working are

• lack of frequent soft yellow poo by day 5-6. Too often, mothers are told it is normal for the baby not to poo at this stage - it's not normal until the baby is a few weeks old
• long, unsatisfying feeds OR baby asleep a lot and not really asking for feeds
• miserable baby
• continuing to lose weight after about day 4 - early weight loss is normal, but it should have ceased by then (though the baby may take a lot longer to get back to birthweight)

None of these is a definite sign in itself, but any or all of them should prompt someone who knows what they are talking about to really observe a feed, and check for milk transferring from mother (A) to baby (B).

babbler, is anything on that list above familiar to you? If it is, then you and your baby were let down, not by your breasts, still less by you as a mother (as if!), but by the less than perfect circumstances you began breastfeeding in.

Don't know if I was lucky but my NCT teacher was marvellous - definitely did NOT give the impression that breastfeeding was a doddle, and emphasised all the sources of help we could get if we hit problems (which I did).

Babbler - it sounds like your midwife really didn't understand about breastfeeding given her comments about expressing to prove your milk supply. I couldn't get anything out by expressing at first - took me weeks of practice to get any good at it and even then it was nowhere near the same as feeding.

But you know you've already done brilliantly to feed at all and your baby WILL have benefited from that. And most importantly you sound like a lovely, caring mum and that outweighs anything else.

Tiktok you've hit the nail on the head, and seem to understand exactly where i'm coming from. I experienced all your pointers, me and my dh knew something was up, however mw and hv ignored these cues. And even though they knew we were a dr and nurse was certainly no excuseb that we must know what we were doing, after all this is our 1st child, and being parents yourself is different from giving advice to others hey.

oh, babbler......that is so sad, and so bl**dy typical. The training of midwives and health visitors in some areas is absolutely woeful. So you checked all those boxes about lack of poo and behaviour and weight - and you even raised questions yourself about whether things were ok - and you were still ignored, until of course the crisis point when your midwife hit the panic button.

When you feel you can, how about (with your medical and nursing connections) writing to the supervisors of these people (bear in mind their own training may have been poor, as well) and pointing out how disappointed you were with their level of knowledge and support? Not everyone feels able to do this, though, I know....

If you want to talk about making the most of the breastfeeding you are now doing, and maybe making it better, then I am happy to help outside mumsnet. You can reach me by using the Contact another talker link at the top of the page. If you don't, that's ok, too

Sometimes, just puttiing the experience behind you with understanding and acceptance and no self-blame is the way forward. It's up to you.

sounds like you were both trying really hard. I would guess you didn't have latch right - despite what the midwives said. He sounds like he was exhausting himself trying to get enough food - poor little mite. I would guess now he is bigger he probably has a much better latch and feeds much better - so you may be able to phase out the formula topups.

Whatever - well done for getting as far as you have. And for next time you will know to get an expert in breastfeeding to help you - not just the hospital midwives !

just another comment - when I had my twins at 35 weeks no-one thought to mention that the sucking reflex doesn't kick in til later - so I never got mine to latch on and ended up expressing for 9 months. If I had known that I would have persevered with trying to get them feeding as they got older.

throckenholt, that's another indictment of bf support. It should be basic kbnowledge for any health prof concerned with babies about the sucking reflex, and you should have been supported to get your babies sucking directly when the time was right.....even so, exp for nine months is a wonderful achievement, esp for two babies. WOW!

Yep, throckenholt.....all the stuff I listed to do with signs the baby may not be getting enough is fixable, with attention to latch, and attention to the frequency of the feeds.

Too often, we hear from mothers who say 'but they checked the way the baby was latched and they told me it was fine'......and yet the mother may have terrible sore nipples and the baby may not be getting enough.

In the majority of cases, the latch is certainly not fine, but ill-trained people cannot see this.

The other possibility is tongue tie, though I am wary of this becoming 'diagnosis of the month' like sometimes, thrush can be ("we can't find any reason for these sore nipples so the mum must have thrush"). It is always wortth checking for TT, but the majority of babies don't have it, and the majority of babies with TT are not affected feeding wise by it. Oh, and I do believe in thrush as well, but some HPs have caught onto this too enthusiastically IMHO.

tiktok - I know that now . I was bloody minded about the expressing. I had done it for DS1 for a month until he finally latched on so I thought I could do the same thing for the twins - but I never had the time or the energy to get them latched on - so I concentrated on expressing because I thought getting breast milk into them in whatever way was the most important. I thought it was because they were so small - their mouths were physically not big enough to get over my nipples (which seemed to expand at the same time ). I didn't realise about the sucking reflex. I should have done because in hindsight I think that was the problem with DS1 - he was born at 38 weeks (induced because of high blood pressure) - he just wouldn't latch on - but I was more stubborn than him and finally convinced him at 4 weeks. Went on to feed him for a year.

It amazes me that the medical staff don't know this sort of stuff - for all they push breastfeeding they only know how to help those who find it easy. For those who have a bad start they generally seem to be useless - and it is down to luck and stubborness if you manage to find someone to help, or figure things out yourself.

Excuse me Babbler for addressing tiktok on your thread. Thanks Tiktok for clearing this up. I did have a thread about it but when saw you might be(are) nct thought it an opportunity to ask someone from the organisation directly. It wasn't a misunderstanding. Wont take your time up here - Friend had a lack of confidence about wanting to bf afterwards (baby due dec). Thanks to Mumsnet confidence restored.

Tiktok, no offence taken. I support the NCT 101%, and have myself been several of those thousands of callers to the bfing line. All I can say is that while I was well-prepared for what might go wrong in labour (as well as how to help things go well), I was totally ill-prepared for what might go wrong in breastfeeding. Once things went wrong there was marvellous help available.

OK, cardi Good luck to your friend. NCT policy is to make it easier for women to breastfeed wherever they happen to be.

prettycandles, we often talk in NCT about the difficulties of preparing women for after the birth - in classes, mothers and fathers to be tend to focus on The Day, and I sometimes really feel that what I am saying about afterwards goes in one ear and out the other, and that people listen very selectively. I don't think we get it right for everyone, by no means.

People may reckon we don't talk about the problems of breastfeeding. But in a class lasting 2 hours, they have to come up!! We talk about getting breastfeeding going, with the explicit message that this is to avoid problems, and what those problems might be.

But no one can be 'prepared' for everything. The best we can do is to say there is help for you, whatever happens

I think tiktok is right. When we had NCT classes we were allowed to set our own agenda for the topics we wished to cover. Frankly what happened afterwards, caring for baby, feeding, sleeping or lack of etc was a bit of an afterthought. That was not so much the teacher's fault but our attitudes and I suspect that of many 1st time mums to be. As it happens she did override us a little and arranged for a recent mum to come and visit for a session, and similarly the National Health ante natal classes included a session on breastfeeding (both of which alienated the mum to be in our group who planned to bottle feed from birth) but I think the mind is more focussed by then on the birth, rather than beyond. Somehow that practical reality and information which we may well have been given during those sessions just didn't sink in.

Hi Babbler, DD1 and I had quite a difficult time of it while I was feeding her. I felt that it should be easy, or at least that was the impression I was given by most healthcare pro's I went to for help. In hindsight it was most probably through their ignorance of breastfeeding at the time that I kept coming up against quite a blase attitude, an almost patronising reassurance when I knew full well that something was wrong. They really did think it should be 'easy', pushed these views on me, and this all led me to feel like the most horrendous failure when it didn't go all that smoothly at all. This sadly at the time led me to believe that this was the general opinion regarding breastfeeding, so I was actually afraid of approaching NCT or others for fear of it being reiterated that "you're doing fine" "it will all settle down" "it shouldn't hurt" (I wasn't, it didn't and it did (just a painful let down!)). I know a little more about the fantastic work NCT do, also La Leche et all now. I only wish I did then! One time someone said to me "It's not the end of the world", but to me it truly was and I broke down in wracking sobs right there in front of her! This time with DD2, yes, I am finding it easy by comparison, but only due to it going well (that probably makes absolutely no sense, but I'm sure it's what I mean!)
If you would like to boost your supply, fennel tea might help. It really has worked wonders for me this time around.
I am sorry for rambling on like this, it's quite an emotive issue for me, and heartbreaking to read of someone else (and many others who've posted) going through this. I was devastated for a large amount of time throughout DD1's first 18 months of life. I really hope you can see a way out of feeling so sad.
xx

Levanna - great story and straight from the heart.

One thing breastfeeding counsellors are taught - and I hope we get it right most of the time - is not to tell people what they should feel. So to someone struggling with bf, or their regrets about it, we don't say 'you have a lovely little baby - what does it matter if you don't breastfeed? ' or 'don't feel guilty' or (as in your case) 'it's not the end of the world if you don't breastfeed'.

In fact, with hindsight, mothers do come to realise that there is more to mothering than the way you feed, and they can decide that none of it was their 'fault' so guilt is not appropriate, but it is not for us to deny them the right to feel the way they do now, or to deny it matters how they feed. We accept the mother's feelings, which are hers to own.

I know, too, that sometimes mothers are scared to ask for help in case the 'right' help isn't given - again, as you say. This is why I love sites like mumsnet because they offer the opportunity to explain how we work.

babbler, I didnt bf my ds as I seemd to produce little milk. Unfortunately he went on to develop lots of allergies so I am determined to try harder with my next baby (due any day now!). I have emailed the very helpful La Leche League and they have made several suggestions to increase milk supply. The first is domperidone, this is an over-the-counter pill for bloating and one side-effect is it increases prolactin levels and therefore increases milk. The second suggestion was fenugreek, a spice often used in Asian food. This has been used for many years in Egypt and India to increase milk supply. I'll find some links if you are interested.

when i was having trouble feeding dd sometimes not gaining at all, occasionally putting on a tiny amount, sometimes losing a tiny amount my HV was a rock. however, i was so worried about my baby squirming during feeds, rather than lying still in a sort of rapturous daze like my friends' babies, that i rang the LLL. The counsellor said 'well, i've never heard of that before!'

It seems domperidone is not now recommended.

I'm really skeptical about the whole "not producing enough milk" theory. With DS1, I thought I didn't produce enough. He sucked and sucked for hours. We had latch issues, I used shields (big faff). He gained weight, but not quickly enough. He was always thin, for a baby. Happy and healthy, but thin. He never gained more than a few ounces per week. Despite lots of stress from the HVs, I persevered with breast feeding, but did give in and give solids at 16 weeks.

He remained fairly thin, although he's pretty tall. He's now a happy healthy 3 year old.

How do I know the problem wasn't me? DS2 gains 8 oz/week. He feeds for ten or fifteen minutes at a time. He sleeps well. He's fat.

I don't know why things are going so much better with DS2. His arrival was better. He had no latch issues (well, sometimes I needed to fiddle with his lower lip a bit, but really minor stuff). I actually feel like I have less milk this time, at least I almost never leak. But this baby gains and gains.

bunny2 - Domperidone is prescribed at our hospital for women having milk production problems which happens with babies in SCBU unable to feed etc. It certainly is not recommended as a first line treatment - extra expressing/feeding is the first step as well as making sure baby is latched properly. Still is very useful. Just thought I would let you know that.

I've used fenugreek myself, very successfully. I used it in the early weeks of breastfeeding, and several times after - even as late as 9m, when dd had a bout of gastroenteritis and had virtually nothing but breastmilk for a week.

Sorry, babbler, I don't remember whether or not you want to try to increase your milk supply at this stage. I don't think you should be 'encouraged' to do so, unless it is what you yourself want. But if you do, then fenugreek could help you. If not, then that is absolutely fine - remember your ds is still getting breastmilk, and you have done exceedingly well to conitnue giving him breast for so long.

Copied from your other thread. Excuse spelling - celebrating winding up bf with an overspiked rum and coke.

Yup. This feels like a while ago now. I followed everything that i was told (basically bed bound for six weeks), and no one (midwives/HVs/NCT bf counsellor/HV bf group) could find any probs with latch. She fed for hours - towards the ends she wasn't sleeping more than 5 hours a day - but by 6 wks still below birth weight. 2nd centile weight vs. 75th centile height. Emaciated. Terrifies me to see those photos. Last few weeks she was very angry all the time - all but talking to me saying 'please mum, I'm hungry'.

Brought in formula at six weeks. Completely turned the corner - wegith shot up, satrted to sleep, I felt much better (under less pressure too). Had a lot of tut-tut from HVs/bf counsellors/gran, and predictions of milk drying up/all the other doom. Got very tired if hearing the 'supply and demand' chesnut. However, Dd 7.5 months now. We've finished bf - but literally two days ago (because she bit me and drew blood!). Dh reckons that formula saved my breast milk, because if Dd had spent any more time screaming at the breast in frustration, then she would have rejected me completely as soon as she could (and my exhaustion would have completely scuppered things). As it was, we spent a month with 4 oz formula a day, then built up slowly from there. I weaned her at 5 months, at which point we were 50:50 bf/formula. Worked hard at it in the meanwhile, but tried to be pragmatic about the formula. Used to talk about it for hours, had several initiatives to reestablish bf. Was v. v. embarssed at bringing out bottles - felt very inadequate. Got very frustrated at people's cynisism about there beimg any remote possibility of me really having a problem.

Kif - it is crystal clear your baby needed that formula, and I am glad things resolved.

I can't say what happened to cause that gap between what your baby needed and what was available to her - would need to know more details. It's great you maintained breastfeeding despite the crisis. I think women do feel embarrassed sometimes at using bottles - and they are embarrassed at feeling embarrassed, too....feeling on the one hand 'I need to use this thing - why on earth should I feel bad about it?' and on the other 'I hope no one asks me why I am using a bottle.' It's all part of the way mothers get criticised and anxious no matter what they do. : (

Can I just ask - did the NCT bf counsellor 'tut tut' at you, and in what way?