Struggling to bf 3 week old baby. Not enough milk. Hating every minute of bf :(

[Eaglebird]

I'm at my wits end.
DS was bfing ok until a recent growth spurt which started last week, when he wanted to feed again & again over a short period of time. I was absolutely worn out & couldn't take any more, so midwife & hv suggested giving him a small amount of formula when needed to top him up. I did this a couple of times (about 30ml of formula) and everything was fine.
Now DS is 3 weeks old, he seems to be a very hungry baby. He will feed for 45 mins up to an hour, and still be hungry. However, after this time my breasts are empty. I've tried expressing after a feed and nothing comes out.
DS is becoming increasingly frustrated during breastfeeds. Initially he is fine. He latches on well and sucks happily. After a while, he thrashes his head from side to side, and becomes irritable then starts screaming. When I put him to the other breast he latches on well and again sucks happiliy until (I assume) that breast also empties. After emptying both breasts he is obviously still hungry and screams for more milk, but I have no more milk to give him.
I've trid expressing durng the day, between feeds, to see if this will stimulate supply, but I'm lucky if I'm able to express 30ml each time. Usually less.
I'm becoming so upset at the problems I'm having, and at DS being so distressed. I'm hating every minute of bfing and don't know what to do for the best. Can anyone help please?

I am just a mum but wanted to post a quick comment as you sounded down.

Just a couple of points...

...Breasts don't get empty, as you feed they keep producing milk.
...Expressing is no indication of how much milk you have.
...Toping up with formula in the first 6 weeks can be damaging to supply and is likely to lead to full time formula.
...You can offer a third and fourth side if your baby needs it.

Hopefully one of the experts will be along soon.

Here are the numbers for the trained Breastfeeding counsellors.

If you want to wean your DS back onto 100% breastmilk, they can advise how best to increase your supply.

National Childbirth Trust 0870 444 8708
La Leche League 0845 120 2918
Breastfeeding Network 0844 412 4664
Association for Breastfeeding Mothers 08444 122 949

HTH

Last comment I promise.

Breastfeeding is a learned skill, although some mums and babies 'get it' straight away, the rest of us need to practise a lot at the start.

It does get easier, the first few weeks were a complete nightmare for me. Things got easier by the end of the first month and by the end of the second month I actually started to like breastfeeding.

I'm sure someone with more knowledge than me will be along soon but would just like to say that 45 mins to an hour for feeding sounds quite normal. Well it was for my ds in the early weeks.

I hope someone can give you the right advice, I know it's hard but you're doing a great job.

eagle im so sorry for you this sounds like hell for you

like babies everywhere said boobs constantly fill the more they are used so the more formula will equal less supply

i know its draining to sit there for an hour or so but its so worth it like babies said also the more you feed the more you will produce dont worry too much about how much milk your producing as this will just make you stressed just enjoy feeding your baby

i found having a couple of skin to skin milk ins with my lo helped during growth spurts
ie you lie in bed naked with yr naked lo and spend all day feeding being waited on by your oh and cddling having loads of skin to skin it was fab loved it

all she does now is bite me if my nipples are out bless her but i loved it and i fed for 10 months all together but it wasnt without struggle

keep going but stop worrying and best of luck

i found the nct and the la leche league a huge help also i joined a local bibs group run by my local health centre bibs = breast is best i assre you they would never say top up with formula.

Hello Eaglebird,

You sound at the end of your tether. It's horrible when you feel like you've no milk isn't it.

It's a real shame your mw and hv aren't more knowledgeable about bfing. When a baby is going through a growth spurt, they need to suck all the time to increase your milk supply.

If you ride it out, it lasts about 24-48 hours (okay, sometimes a tiny bit longer, ds once had a three day one) until baby has increased your supply to the level needed.

However, think what happens if you introduce formula at this time. Baby never gets the time at your breast needed to produce the milk needed so is always frustrated.

And then what do mw/hv advise? Yes, more formula. So baby is even more frustrated.

So mw/hv advise more formula...

... until in the end you are fully ff.

It's a vicious circle and if you do want to carry on bfing, the best thing to do is just give your baby the time at the breast he needs. Offer first, second, third, fourth side. Ride it out.

I would also suggest you get someone to check your latch just in case baby isn't sucking well enough to get all the milk he needs. Although not the mw/hv as, nice as I'm sure they are, they don't know anything about the basics of a growth spurt so are even less likely to know about checking a latch.

Also, why not try feeding lying down? It can be tricky at first but once you've learned it you'll never look back. You can then rest while baby is feeding.

to you; I know exactly what it's like to have a crying ds who seems constantly hungry and everyone trying to get you to give a bottle, really I do.

I would strongly suggest finding a local breastfeeding support group near you. Try phoning your local surestart centre. Alternatively phone the hospital where you delivered (assuming you had hospital birth) and ask for the infant feeding coordinator that specialises in breastfeeding. Don't just listen to any old mw; as you've already found out, some of them actually know very little about bfing.

(My ds was exactly the same as yours at that age. I could never express more than a couple of mls either. Even know, at seven months, I can't express much more than about 20 mils between feeds... but I know I have enough milk. Expressing isn't normally a good way to see how much milk you have!)

Forgot to say, when DS thrashes around with frustration, I put him to the other breast and he sucks happily for a while. When he starts thrashing around again I swap breasts again, and again. Initially he will suck happily at the new breast, then starts thrashing around when no more milk is forthcoming. I keep swapping over breasts as long as is necessary.
If DP or I give him expressed milk, which I've expressed at an earlier date, he will gladly drink it and is then content.
And he has no issues with changing from sucking at the breast to sucking from a bottle, then sucking from the breast again at the next feed.
I feel so disappointed that I can't seem to produce enough milk to satisfy my DSs hunger. I'm upset and keep crying about it, which is silly I know, as if I have to give DS formula I know it's not the end of the world. I was hoping to enjoy bfing, but I'm finding it such a worry & so stressful that I'm just hating it, even after only 3 weeks

I wonder if you have an over supply of milk.

My DD just to kinda choke a bit when the letdown happened, trying to deal with the high pressure hose of breastmilk.

I remember a post on Mumsnet recently giving advice on over supply from 'Slur'

But I would recommend ringing one of those helplines and speaking to an expert.

my dd used to do the same in fact she used to pull away and my breast used to squirt milk five feet everywhere then when the worst had gone shed carry on

very embarrassing when feeding in public bt hey ho what ever works

Too Much Milk Link

Does that sound like your situation ?

Eaglebird, it's hard to understand what might be going on here - it will really help to talk to someone and also for someone to observe a feed so they can help you work out what's going on.

I don't see any evidence in your posts of not enough milk though. If all you gave him was 2 x 30 mls of formula top up, they won't have affected your supply. Feeding for 45mins - 1 hour is normal, but of course it's not normal for all this thrashing about and screaming to happen, and that could even be an over-generous supply overwhelming him....worth thinking about and talking about anyway.

So do call one or all of those numbers....and forget about expressing to see how much milk you have as this is no guide at all, believe me

babieseverywhere
No, I've read the link you posted, andit doesn't sound like I have too much milk.

Sorry, haven't read all the posts, but he probably needs to chomp on the breasts to get the supply up to the level he needs, and he will be getting milk from you as he does so. He may also have a 2nd let-down as he goes back onto the breast you offered first. My DD2 had a similar phase at 3 weeks and at 4 weeks she settled into longer night-time sleeps because she was (I assume) getting enough in the daytime. Hard work, but with support at home, worth it. Have you looked at Jack Newman's 'Complete Breastfeeding Book of Answers'? Lots of good tips there. If you think you need to boost your milk supply, try drinking fenugreek tea - it certainly worked for me!

Crying could well mean he is tired, not hungry. Try taking him out for a walk well wrapped up after the feed.

I found my DD wanted to feed constantly at this time. Rather than fight it I sat down on the settee with the remote controls, a drink, and a box set of Desperate Housewives DVDs and that was how I spent most of my days. Nothing else got down but WTH- if you spend time cleaning you just have to do it again anyway, and your DS won't be this little for long.

He was stirring after a nap & was grizzling for his feed, so I put him to the breast again. Initially he latched on well & fed happily & greedily for about 5 mins, then started crying & thrashing about again & wouldn't latch back on. Tried him in a football hold on the same breast, he latched on, had a bit of a suck then started thrashing again.
Put him to the other breast and exactly the same thing happened. Tried swapping breasts & trying different positions, but the same outcome each time.
When he starts crying & thrashing, he is inconsolable. I'm in tears every time I try to bf him, and am in tears now just thinking about it.
In desperation I gave him 30ml of formula, which he drank, and is now lying contentedly in my arms. It's the happiest I've felt all day. I find myself dreading bfing DS as I get so upset.
I'm going to the clinic tomorrow and will ask one of the midwives to observe me feeding him so I can get some help. I feel so sad as I was hoping we'd both enjoy bfing, but at the moment I hate it and feel so down.
dressedup, I would love to spend all day in bed bfing while DP waits on me, but he's back at work. And I think I'd go insane if I spent all day trying to bf DS, as I'm in tears after spending an hour at a time trying to feed him to no avail.
I really didn't want to give DS formula, but I'm considering it might be a good idea, if only for my own sanity. I feel like a bad mother for saying that

Just spoken to a lovely lady from Association for Breastfeeding Mothers who has gave me some suggestions to try. Poured my heart out & had a good cry at her for half an hour. Feel a bit better, and will try what she suggested. Thanks everyone who replied.

hi eagle bird not sure if my advic is any good but this is exactly what i experienced
what i did was just to feed feed feed
i even used to sit up feeding dd from 9pm till 5 am in the early days and i mean constanly feeding -[3 weeks is still early days and it WILL get better]

i know how you fel friends used to moan to me that they had to feed every hour, and i was thinking you lucky bastards i have to fed constanly for hours
or they used to say they dreaded feeding times and my life was one constant feed

its horrible when you fel you don't have enough milk i know how you feel but just stick with it and keep feeding you are doing a great no fantastic job

well done eagle bird

Just one other suggestion - I have found with both my DDs that thrashing around indicates wind sometimes. It can take an AGE to get all the wind out at that age but it must be mighty painful. Three weeks is a very hard age with that growth spurt etc- probably the hardest week so be gentle with yourself and look forward to some better times in the future!

Eaglebird, Haven't read all the thread, but just wanted to say the first 4 weeks of breastfeeding are always the worst. It definitely, definitely gets better. You are probably over the worst now if you can just keep going

Was just gonna say wind- Had exactly same problem and dd actually had a wind/ colic think silent reflux type problem and even though she seemed like she wanted to feed would actually be uncomfortable and the extra milk was just making problem worse. Definitely get expert advice. Have you tried a dummy in between feeds - maybe he wants something to suck on but not more milk. I too got hardly anything from expressing and never managed to make enough to give as a feed ( couldnt fit in enough expressings between feedings!) but I wouldnt worry about even trying to express for mo. If you have given the odd bit of formula to give yourself a break dont beat yourself up about it. I had friends who combined both from the beginning and breast fed for months. I am not suggesting this is the way to go btw but dont feel guilty. 3 weeks is a tough point and 6 weeks then after 2 months it starts getting easier until you notice quite a big change at 3 months and this is wether you bf or ff- I have done both and actually had a harder time with ff baby! Chin up and keep getting help

De-lurking to say second everything all these other far more experienced mums have said, and to offer my own experience. HATED breast feeding for the first 3 or 4 weeks, was lulled into false sense of security by first 2 days of DS's life (in hospital) could latch on perfectly, contented feeding, sleeping well etc. Two weeks down the line every feed hurt, seemed to go for ages, baby constantly crying. Misery. Was all ready to jack it in (asked DH for "permission" to stop - he told me not to be so silly and to do whatever I wanted to do, did not want me making self miserable) and decided to give it one last shot over a weekend, then was gong out to buy bottles, formula etc. Somehow things came together over that couple of days - I relaxed about it.

DS now 8.5 months and still BF morning and evening (and during the night when he wakes but that's another story!). Am amazed still going and would never have thought would still be BFing this far down the line.

Would suggest losinoh (dont think I have spelt that right) lotion on your nipples after every feed - you don't need to wipe it off before baby latches on; also feeds do take quite a long time at this stage as baby is not that strong and feeding is tiring - DS can now strip a boob in 5 minutes flat!

On the other hand, don't beat yourself up. This is your body and your child - if you want to stop BFing, stop. You have given it a shot and your baby has had lots of lovely antibodies and goodness from you over the last 3 weeks, which many babies never get.

can i ask what the abm recommended you try?

I'm really glad you phoned up one of the consultants, best source of advice,much better than mw/hv (usually of course! some are ace)
i'm not sure changing breast often is a good idea unless your ds has 'emptied' (well, it never really empties but had a good go at least) the first breast, sometimes if they need feeding often it is worth trying the same breast again to see if they settle better with that.
did the mw check for thrush? that can cause them pain when feeding.
no other ideas but hoping you are doing ok

ABM suggested holding DS differently when feeding. Not holding the back of his head. Tried this, by supporting the weight of his head from underneath with the palm of my hand (instead of sort of cupping my fingers around the back of his head), and he latches on easier now. But he still thrashes around after 5 mins or so, so that hasn't solved the problem.
Also they suggested possible nipple confusion (which I don't think is the problem), not using a dummy, not expressing & not giving formula. He is a sucky baby, and sucks his hands (making his chin all sore)if I don't offer a dummy, so I still give him the occasional dummy. He will happily bf after using a dummy, so I don't think nipple confusion is the problem.

Last night he wanted to bf more or less constantly from 20:30 to 00:15, which left me shattered. DP gave him 30ml of expressed milk at 00:15, and I bf him again 01:30, and he finally went to sleep around 02:00, waking at 05:30.
Feel like a zombie today, and think I may have to get DP to give him a wee bit of formula if tonight is like last night, despite the advice from the helpline.

If anyone else says to me 'you must sleep whn DS sleeps durng the day' I will scream! By the time I've got DS to sleep after a feed, had a bite to eat for breakfast, got washed, ironed a pair of trousers & top to wear, got dressed etc, he is awake again. Similarly, later in the day I'm lucky if I manage to make a sarnie & put a load of washing on, and he's awake again wanting to feed again. DP has been doing household chores, as I just can't find time to do them. And DPs mother has taken a basket load of ironing away as I'll never have time to plough through it all. Sometimes I think you need to be superwoman to breastfeed.

Eaglebird it sounds like you are doing a really good job. I can´t add to what has already been said and, importantly, you´ve been in direct touch with an advisor over the phone.. My ds is almost 7 months and I remember feeling frustrated at people´s comments about sleeping when ds sleeps, feeling it was totally impossible and I wish they wouldn´t say it. BUT BUT BUT everything they say is so true. This phase of them being so small and needing to feed all the time, while feeling like it is going on forever at the time, really does pass so quickly and given the chance again I would really do my best to do NOTHING except feed my baby and myself. Let your dh do the housework, let your MIL do the ironing, your job right now is to feed your baby. It is hard work at first and does take all the energy you have and more.