I know you're all going to say that nobody cares about bl*dy Alphamummy anyway, but I still have to express my ANGER...

[emkana]

...at this

Tiktok - not to speak for kittock, but tbh, some of the leaflets we got from the NHS did have an element of that sort of message in them (though I didn't think they were as strong as kittock believes).

I can't recall the name of the leaflet, but it came with the standard NHS pregnancy book?

DW and I were/are pro-bf - but some of the attitude coming through in this leaflet put our backs up.

(struggling to recall..) iirc - there was a large section of boxed text stating something like "excl. bf till six months is the best - if you want to do anything else, contact your doctor" - which had us thinking "eh? shouldn't the person who's breasts they are be able to decide?"

Now i know that (1) part of this advice is actually against early weaning and (2) that is the standardish advice on formula (i think?), but I still think it puts the message out much more sternly and with much more pressure than is necessary.

I have never bothered to look at alphamummy before because of the name! Just thought, "alphamummy... no that one's not for me..." I saw the post printed in the Times where it was cut off after the burning nipples bit and thus kind of enigmatic; I just felt sorry for her really. Obviously she's had a crap experience, I suspect fairly recently and still feeling raw. I would add that this is no excuse for shoddy "journalism" but an awful lot of journalism seems to be made up of the slightly hysterical one-sided personal experience of the journalist these days.

Tiktok - the NHS literature lists the usual advantages over bottle feeding that we are all familiar with - protection against various types of infection, allergies etc. By the same token, bottle feeding must then leave your child with disadvantages in terms of lack of this protection. I have no problem with the promotion of breastfeeding. My issue is that in the drive to get this message across, the potential problems are just not acknowledged and this can leave women in considerable confusion and distress when problems do occur, especially when even the health professionals don't have a sufficient level of knowledge to help.

In the NHS ante-natal breastfeeding class that I attended we were taken through all the advantages of breastfeeding, and given a doll to hold in the two recommended positions, but when mothers were invited to write their concerns up on a board for discussion, all questions about potential problems such as pain, mastitis, thrush, low milk supply etc were either brushed aside as being "extremely rare/unlikely" or just ignored entirely. In this class as in all the literature that I saw at the time, it was suggested that any problems with pain or low milk supply could be attributed to a bad latch. So imagine my bewilderment some weeks later through my tears of pain (and distress at my baby's falling weight) when health visitors and midwives kept saying things like "the latch looks fine... it shouldn't hurt".

I think my point is that all women and all babies are different and there many different reasons why breastfeeding may be problematic or impossible, but the impression that you get (or at least that I got) from the promotional literature and from most health professionals is that if it's not working, it's because you're doing it wrong. And I simply don't believe that is always true.

kittock, that's not what you said in your previous post, though. You wanted to stop the 'deafening' NHS stuff that said formula 'seriously disadvantages' your baby.

When asked where this stuff was, you respond with a perfectly justifiable account of the way problems are not acknowledged and imperfectly dealt with when they arise.

I am still wanting to know where all this 'seriously disadvantages your child' bit is!

I would like more honesty about the health risks of formula, don't get me wrong, but not panicky stuff, and only alongside solid information and help when bf needs it.

Tiktok where did I say that I wanted to stop it? I was just trying to outline a situation in which mothers are being urged from all sides to breastfeed to avoid health problems in their children, and then being left in the lurch when they can't.

kittock, for some reason you are misunderstanding my posts. You said the message from the NHS was 'deafening' that formula feeding 'seriously disadvantages babies'.

I said I did not know of any messages like this. Health effects of infant feeding are always phrased as 'benefits' of breastfeeding and nothing is said about disadvantages, serious or otherwise, of formula.

You may have been exaggerating or imagining these 'deafening' messages. If so, just say so!

Of course I agree that women don't get the right help to breastfeed. Separate issue.

Emkana you're not going to like this - there is a similar piece in the comment section of todays Guardian entitled "breast is not best". Am rubbish at linking so havent but its easy to find on the guardian website under "comment is free".

These women commentators "bravely" speaking out against evil bf support groups. Its just so brave dont you think? Especially when ff is actually the norm in our society at the moment.

Pathetic.

Oh to have one journalist who doesn't come out with the same rubbish that we've read a hundred times, but actually does something original...

Tiktok - If breastfeeding confers significant advantages on a child then surely bottle feeding must leave children seriously disadvantaged. How can it be otherwise?

But really this isn't my point. I just think that breastfeeding should be promoted through research, proper training for HCP's and provision of information that is actually of some help to mothers rather than endless repetition of breast is best with no backup.

(For the record I should say that against all the odds I am still breastfeeding 2 year old dd, and was helped enormously at a crucial time by an NCT breastfeeding counsellor)

kittock - I know there are no such things as 'breastfeeding benefits'....all breastfeeding does is support the physiological norm.

I know formula feeding has disadvantages (sometimes serious ones) and it is more correct to say this than to talk about 'breastfeeding benefits'.

My point was that this is not what is said....NHS literature does not 'deafen' people with the 'disadvantages' message, and only ever talks about 'benefits'. You may well read (correctly) that talk of 'benefits' means formula fed babies are disadvantaged - of course they are! Most people don't, and actually bristle at the very idea....see posts on mumsnet saying 'no one is saying that formula fed babies are at risk of anything/are harmed by formula, just that breastfeeding has benefits.'

I was just asking where you have seen anything in NHS literature that says it in terms of 'serious disadvantages' - and you still haven't told me! if all you are saying is that it is 'between the lines' then FGS tell me!

OK Tiktok now I understand what you're getting at. I was not talking only about printed material but about advice I was given from ante-natal midwives and the tutor in the breastfeeding class I went to ante-natally which I described earlier. As for specific printed material, it is admittedly nearly two years since I've looked at it, but at the time I read a lot and I got a very strong impression that formula was bad. But looking now at the NHS breastfeeding page, I would say that the following paragraph, although mild enough in its language, is pretty clearly indicating that formula feeding disadvantages your child:

"Bottle feeding does not give your baby the same ingredients as breastmilk, which is designed to be easy for your baby to absorb and is perfect to help him grow and develop. Also, bottle feeding doesn't provide protection against infection and diseases.

"Breastfeeding helps protect your baby against:

ear infections
gastro-intestinal infections
chest infections
urine infections
childhood diabetes
eczema
obesity
asthma."

If it helps I am prepared to revise my use of the word "deafening" - which I will admit is emotive - to "forceful".

I don't think we are really on opposing sides on this issue are we?

What would you like them to say?

"Breastfeeding provides but formula's fine and you'll probably end up using it anyway, so don't worry about trying to bf. Plus men will look at you weird if you bf. Love from The NHS"

kittock, thanks...we are on the same side, you are right, but all I was asking was where does this deafening - now 'forceful' - message come from about serious disadvantages because I had never seen an example of it in the NHS.

The NHS page you highlight is still hardly 'forceful'. I should say I am not in favour of 'forceful'. I am in favour of calm, logical, open and honest information. I reckon that page gets it about right, though there is still room for impovement.

kittock, formula feeding, does have disadvantages in comparison to formula, it isn't being made up.

Breastfeeding has been proven to help your child guard against childhood diseases, if we aren't allowed to tell people this then how will they know??

The point of informing people is not to amke them feel bad for choosing to feed their abbies with formula, but to allow them to make an infomred decision, which without the relevant information, they can't.

Surely a mother who has chose to formula feed then reads the differences between breastmilk and formula, that then regrets not knowing all the information has been let down by the healthcare professionals???

It is all well and good deciding to formula feed if you have all the knowledge needed, but if not then, in a way, you are being conned into believing there is no difference, when, in fact, there is.

I think there is a problem though when you have chosen to bf and find it overwhelmingly difficult despite having help from all sides. When you feel that you have no option but to ff after taking on board all the benefits of bf then you could feel as though you are hugely letting your baby down. At that point, support is needed to help you feel that you are not poisoning your baby or at the very least setting them up for all kinds of trouble later on. I know that my sister felt abandoned when she finally admitted that bfing was a disaster for her. She had a dreadful few months at the beginning of her baby's life.

I totally agree juuule, and I think that every parent out there that tries to breastfeed and for whatever reason cannot continue, should be incredibly proud of themselves for trying and not kick themselves for it not working, but again, the healthcare professionals that are helping/hindering breastfeeding mothers should be trained properly to help with the stopping of breastfeeding and the reassurance that they aren't harming their baby.

Don't see what's wrong with encouraging women to try to breastfeed. I've met many mothers who absolutely refuse to countenance the idea ...full stop. They aren't being badgered by Bf nazis, they aren't going to made uncomfortable because they aren't doing 'the right thing'. Most of the others mothers I know are all in favour or at least are prepared to give it a go and in the end that's all anyone can ask of them. And it's common knowledge that bf is good for a baby. Not sure what is so outrageous about saying that. It isn't bullying. How could it be?

I do agree with one of the replies that said:" 'YES BF CAN HURT REALLY REALLY BADLY EVEN WHEN YOU ARE DOING IT PROPERLY'"..
because ime it can do. It gets better and if you are determined to keep it up for a while it's worth the initial discomfort. I don't think it helps to pretend it's always easy because then when it isn't mothers will think they are doing it wrong and feel dispirited.

Just once more for the record - I am NOT against encouraging women to breastfeed. I just think that there are problems with the method of promotion and in particular that there is a mismatch between the message given to mothers and the help actually available, and that this has left a lot of mothers with a lot of unnecessary guilt.

Victorian Squalor - I wasn't quoting the NHS website to rubbish it - I was just answering a specific point from Tiktok.

That's it. I'm off to Facebook .

Don't know if anyone saw this today, but the Times has at least redressed the crap journo balance a bit here (you have to scroll down, it's after the hugging bit). Though searching for this just now did throw up so many more negative bf stories.