Do you persevere with the virtual (that's what it says on the tin) breastmilk?

[AutumnLeaves]

What if you would have like to have breastfed, but decided it wasn't working for you.

So then you put baby on a formula milk, baby is happy, feeding well putting on steady weight. But then you decide to change the milk because you've been recommended another brand that is vitually the same as breastmilk, so they say.

You try it, baby is not happy, being sick, having runny poos, not settled. Do you go back to the 1st formula brand? Or do you persevere with the virtual breastmilk?

Sorry FioFio, I didn't mean that post the way it read. It's the not attempting that I find sad but that can be after a section or not....when I had DD1 a girl in the ward had just had her second and watching two of us bfeed said 'I'd really like to bfeed but I know I couldn't stand the pain'. I think now that our hospital is lots better at bfing and it is not considered the default whereas formula was 'normal' 3 years ago. All good progress - see I'm feeling a bit more positive now after pegging out my washing in the sunshine!!

I would be interested to know what formula the b'feeding mums on this thread would have used had they not made it as b'feeders. I am not trying to be inflammatory when I ask this. I know that when I had my dd1, my dh was offered 3 types of formula (SMA, Aptamil and C&G), as I was having an operation (and there were concerns over dd's low blood sugar). He asked which was the best one, to which the midwife replied (quite rightly) that she couldn't promote one type of milk over another. He chose C&G, and says now he's not sure why (he had been awake for the last 3 days!).I struggled long and hard to bf, but failed miserably and after bottlefeeding EBM moved onto Aptamil ( a woman I had met at an NCT cafe had switched to this brand as her daughter seemed to find it easier to digest - dd1 had really bad colic). But I was unable to find any impartial advice on formula, the HV's weren't able to recommend, and if you look on the internet you either get info from the brands themselves, or concerns over the safety of formula from BMA, George Monbiot etc which whilst important and informative is probably not such good reading for a hormonal wreck whose, as one b'feeding counsellor said 'b'feeding days are over..'

Good question hazeyjane! We did actually have a discussion on MN a while back about how there is no formula comparison chart available in the UK when there is one to be found on the askDrSears site in the US. unfortunately it is irrelevant to the UK as they use a lot of formulas ( formulae?) that are not available here.
I bfed all my children up to an age where they then didn't need formula. But when I did resort to it here's what I used:
Ds1, when working I didn't quite express enough, and I used Aptamil to supplement. I used it because my Mum had used Milupa baby food for my brother. She had also tried to use Milumil, a formula they used to do but my brother had very severe reflux and as it turned out could only tolerate breastmilk! My poor Mum had to relactate after initially being told her milk wasn't enough and he needed formula Also MW's in the hospital where I had ds1 told me Aptamil was closest to breastmilk. I now think that is a load of rubbish but hey, they were midwives!
Ds2, I did express enough, but the first day I left EBM into his creche and a spare bottle of formula in case the EBM wasn't enough. That was also Aptamil. However the numpties in the creche thought "you can't heat breastmilk" and ds2 wouldn't drink it cold so they gave him the formula. He broke out in a rash which turned out to be exzema and I had to express like billy-o for his first year to supply enough breastmilk. However towards the end I found a goats milk formula called Nanny which he could tolerate though we didn't need much as I only put it in in case of emergencies.
Ds3 wouldn't touch bottles for a long time and when he did, didn't drink much from them so has never had a drop of formula in his life.

btw, Nanny is no longer available in the UK but we can still get it in Ireland. I feel that it has been banned in the UK because they were a company that genuinely didn't seem to advertise, even though they had a follow-on milk and would have been permitted to advertise it. They genuinely seemed to be producing it to meet the needs of babies where breastfeeding wasn't an option and didn't try to push it in any way.
Supposedly it was banned because it wasnt' good enough, but I have my doubts.

HJ, I have often wondered that. I think I would probably have gone most for the organic blurb rather than the prebiotic or other untested additives ones, so probably an organic one. But I don't know, really - and I'm definitely not suggesting anybody base their formula-purchasing based on some notion of mine! I do know I'd have read masses about it (have since read masses, but since I have no pressing need for formula, it's difficult to say what I would do for sure). I'd have driven myself potty trying to decide though, I'm sure! That's why I'm so keen women have access to decent, unbiased information.

It's true there is no independent source of decent info about UK formulas; they are marketed in exactly the same way as any other consumer product, with market segmentation existing alongside 'me too' formulations, so there is something different for everyone, but the real differences between them are wafer thin. If the differences are not wafer thin, and the latest ingredient XYZ is really important for infant health, then I want to see it added to every brand....why should some babies have it and not others? We're talking about the sole source of nourishment for hundreds of thousands of babies every year, after all!

Aptamil is aimed at mothers who planned to breastfeed but then stopped or chose to supplement. The history of the way it has been marketed (not just to mothers, but to healthcare professionals) shows this very clearly. It's more highly priced than other formulas, deliberately so, I would guess, as this places it in a different market segment...people think they are paying more because it is better.

Maybe it is...but without proper indpendent assessment and guidance, who's to know?

There is hardly any information available about formula. People do not understand the difference between 'first' and 'second' formulas and they are equally unaware of what 'follow on' is for. This suits the manufacturers, of course - they'd much rather you chose your brand on your emotional response to the colours on the pack, or the slogan, and remained confused about other differences. I bet if you asked, you'd find people thought that 'hungry baby milk' or 'second' formula was higher in calories, or had more fat in it, than 'first' formulas. This is not deliberate ignorance - the info about it is just not easily available.

As for goats milk formula , here's what the govt says about it, based on European Safety guidance:

here

Seems to me the manufacturers of goats milk formula should have presented better evidence to the authorities, looking at what is detailed here.

HJ Haven't contributed to the thread yet, but if I wasn't breastfeeding I would have chosen organic milk. I suspect that one cow's milk based formula is much like another, but I think that the standards of cow welfare are probably higher for the organic milk.

I think choice of formula is probably just one more thing for mothers to kick themselves over for making the 'wrong' choice.

Madame - I agree that mothers can feel pressure to choose the 'right' formula for their baby and it's so unfair as they have very little information to go on....hence they ask around, what do other mothers choose, what does the midwife recommend, what did their own mum use, in an attempt to do the best they can. But other mothers' choice, and their own mother's choice, and the midwife's recommendation are not a guarentee of anything

The information gap is entirely down to the industry.

Your own post is telling....you 'suspect' one cow's milk formula is no better than another, but you 'think' standards of animal welfare are 'probably' better with the organic milk.

We should all know these things, one way or the other.

Completely agree tiktok. Was wondering around the baby food aisle yesterday reading the info on the follow on milk. I am at 1 year bf stage with DD. Apparently I can now stop breastfeeding and she can go on to cow's milk, but then why would she need follow on milk with probiotics (apparently to be like breastmilk?). Wouldn't it just be easier to carry on breastfeeding. However, I know if I discuss this with HV she will get in a state about how much DD is eating compared to breastfeeding. All very confusing, but really another thread.

Start the other thread, then, Madame. Don't be shy

The trouble is that IME (just had to look that up!), you don't really have the time to find out about the formulas ( as well as the info just not being there). By this I mean that I know that I truly believed that I would be b'feeding my baby, it just had not occured to me that I would formula feed, when my mum said that she had b'fed my sister, but ff me I had assumed that was just a choice she made, it was only when I was struggling so much did she say, " well I had exactly the same problems trying to b'feed you, so I just had to put you on the bottle".So I had'nt looked into the various brands before giving birth, and like you say, the info you get from HV is limited and biased. I don't think I have actually seen an organic brand, apart from Hipp, which is only from 6 months.I also understand that the big 3 formula companies have all recently added prebiotics, or 'proteins' to their milks.

I agree, Tiktok about the goats milk formula. They probably could have presented their case a bit better.

I agree too. Also about the dreadful lack of unbiased information on formula.

You can get nanny in the UK, they were going to withdraw it, but instead it was agreed that they would relable it, so it is now sold in a tin which looks the same but makes no reference to infant formula milk.
Another example of Blair gone mad ffs. Just ridiculous.

I think the general recommendation is that you shouldn't switch between formuas - AFAIK they are all the same.

I disagree completely. They are not all the same.
Some are organic, some are produced in a more ethical way than others, aptamil has something cynical in it that makes their poos look like bf poos.

How can you be so certain they are all different, though, Beenleigh? And how do you know by how much they are different, if you know what I mean?

Which formulas are produced in a more ethical way?

well, we know that organic is......organic, and that some are produced in a less ethical way, e.g. nestle have a very dubvious record, and I regard misleading marketing as unethical. As far as the run of the mill c&g, sma etc, I agree they probably are all the same, but some are worse than others.
I definitely think that a formula milk wgich contains something to make their poos runny and yellow should be avoided.
I like babynat and nanny because they are not guilty of dodgy marketing, contain good levels of supplements, like zinc

organic ones are produced using more ethical ingredients

Oh, you mean 'marketed' in a more ethical way, not 'produced', then....all formulas on sale in the UK routinely break the WHO code on marketing, including Babynat (I have just read the blurb on their website) which also manages to break the UK law in its claims. I am not sure what a 'good' level of zinc is in formula....do you mean 'more' than in standard formulas? And why would that be a good thing? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but without decent, independent assessment of infant formula we can't know.

You're making your own value assessments ('some are worse than others') on what you can infer from the manufacturers' marketing and promotion - you have to, because there isn't anything else to go on!

I'm not sure that it would be right to say that something 'cynical' has been used to make the poo's more like b'fed poo. I think (although, as has been said information is sketchy) that an issue with ff babies was often constipation, and with the newer formulations this is less of an issue. However my dd1 had Apatamil pre prebiotic (IYSWIM), and dd2 had had it post, and there poos are pretty much the same. It is difficult using poo as a yardstick ( now there is an image) because the consistency and frequency of a babies poos vary hugely from baby to baby. As for ethical marketing, I can't see that that will ever stop being an issue (whatever the brand), unless formula is only available in plain packaging from limited outlets. I'm afraid that I am a little to nervous of using goats milk (hasn't it been proven that in trials there was no difference, as far as allergies, between goats and cow's milk?), as someone I know who owns goats, has said there are quite a lot of issues with larger scale goats milk production, I'm afraid I can't be more specific, as I don't know all the details, but as has been said it is very difficult to make a decision with all the hearsay, speculation and bias.

OK, Tiktock, take your point.
but Hazyjane, I completely disagree re aptimil. A virtue is made of the fact that their poos are like bf baby poos, and since this is so obviously NOT because the stuff is so similar to bm, it is cynical. Something has been intentionally added to the formula which achieves these results, and whilst it's likely to be completely harmless, I think that it is cynical to do this. The active ingredient is not probiotic incidentally because live probiotic, whilst I'm not doubting that it is added to the milk in the first place, is unlikely survive the conditions the powdered milk is kept in. I add powdered probiotic (which must be kept refridgerated) to dd1s goats milk formula, it doesnt; make a jot of difference to the consistency of her poos, however in DD1 who was prone to constipation, it helped with that a lot, but NEVER to the extent that their poos looked like bf poos.

Re the limited study which 'proved' there was no real benefit to using goats milk. I can not understand why following the findings that there was no real benefit, the decided to ban the sale of goats milk (labelled as) infant formula. Why on earth did they not just say that they found no real benefit, but allow its sale.

I KNOW that goats milk benefits my DD, and I knwo a lot of people who feel the same way.

Nanny goat blair gone mad....again

When I needed to use anything other than breast milk for dd I used Nanny milk. Had never seen it advertised unlike every other brand (Hipp are offering half price follow on milk according to a thread on here last night).
I agree though that the "big name" formulas are all pretty much the same. There's only so much difference that there can be between them for them to all meet the same safety/nutritional standards. Ok, Hipp is organic and vegetarian which I suppose is better.
I heard somewhere that donkey milk is closer to humans than cow's milk so maybe thats the way forward