Please send milky vibes - Kif's last stand

[Kif]

I'm giving it one more week before I just let things take their natural course. Suspect that'll be ds becoming totally formula fed. Which is OK - since he's 4 months, but a little sad.

We had 4 months trouble free feeding. Then 3 weeks mad feeding frenzy, escalating crying, crashing off the charts for weight gain. So from 10 days ago (exc. bf) we're now up to 16oz+ formula a day (and rising?). Still bf every 2 hrs or more, and co-sleeping at night. Similar to what happened to dc1.

My 'last stand' strategy is: I'm treating us both for thrush (query my self diagnosis as no white plaques in his mouth). Also ordered 'more milk plus' supplement - will take from tomorrow. Carry on feedathon (but ff on demand also).

Done the rl rounds with bfc, gp etc. No suggestions. Occassionally express, but max yield 1.5 oz.

Any bfc types have experience of supplements? What can I expect? Anything else you can advise?

All vibes appreciated.

Must resume looking after the rest of my family soon - and feel a little obsessive to be chasing this given he's no longer teeny tiny newborn - but very sad if this is the end of bf for me and my little chap.

Vibes are definitely with you, but also do try fenugreek.

I had very early feeding problems, and ended up supplementing with formula, and was advised by the NTC breastfeeding counsellor to try this. It definitely worked for me, took about 36-48 hours to kick in.

Your more milk supplement may have some in, but it might be worth adding some more. I ended up taking two capsules three times a day - and if you can get the Solgar capsules, I found them much more potent than the Holland and Barrett ones.

Good luck!

wow, that much? does it have any ill effects?

when you said it kicked in, is that 'fuller feeling', or baby taking in the extra milk and wanting less formula (and how do you wean from formula gently - do they self wean, or do you have to withold the bottles?).

kif i do hope it all works out for you and ds. xxxxvery tightly crossed fingersxxxxxx

i had big problems with latch and supply, tried fenugreek and domperidone, you can buy it online. i have no idea what worked or whether ds got better at feeding or a mixture of all, but he did start putting weight on and i'm still feeding at 23m.

thank you guys. put master kif's photos on my profile to help focus those vibes!

kif he is very sweet

so far as i can remember the only side effect of fenugreek is smelling a bit odd (in fact i think that is how you know you are taking enough, when you whiff), it is said to be maple syrup but it isn't quite that nice. domperidone makes you do relaly really big poos as its day job is hastening digestion and side effect is increased bm.

Kif....I think you are right that the 'natural coure' would be ff....16 oz a day is almost certainly too much formula to leave room for much breastmilk

It's deffo worth taking supps - you have nothiing to lose - but the best way of retrieving is to ensure effective, frequent removal of milk. Expressing 1.5 oz is not really a guide - if you did that 12 times a day it would add up to a lot

Effective removal of milk depends on the baby getting milk out with good attachment and business-like suck - was the bfc able to see you feed?

I was only ever supplementing with formula (i.e. bf first and then 'topping up'), so this was relatively easy to drop. I dropped one top-up at a time, so was fairly gradual.

For me - dd was v small - 'kicking in' meant a healthy weight gain for her. I think there was a certain element of fullness too, but not that noticeable.

He's a cutie, btw.

Tiktok - thanks,

He had his first bottle of formula ever saturday 9 days ago - but it is escalating rapidly.

Latch has been checked - I've been going to bf clubs off and on since he was 2wks old. Main problem now, imo, is his motivation rather than his skills.

holding onto a thought that he may be taking extra calories for a 'catch up' spurt. He's only just over 5kg (but 40th centile height)- so a long way to grow.

tiktok - with a balanced view - has this boat already sailed away? Is there hope for my plan? Should I try a more aggressive pharmacological solution (domperidonr, more fenugreek etc.).

It feels just like Dd1 - fine up to a point, then my supply seemed to hit an immovable wall .

Kif, I'd be a bit concerned why the formula has escalated so very quickly....would bit not be possible to reduce it to give your breastfeeding a chance to catch up : ) ?

Do you think he's taking more and more formula because its easier to drink from a bottle than from a breast? I don't know if it is easier to extract milk from a bottle, but my little one used to sort of lie back and lap it out of a bottle where as when she feeds from me you can see each deep suck. I wonder what would happen if you used bottles with less holes in the teat so he had to work harder at it?

I don't want to be discouraging but fenugreek seemed to give my ds dreadful wind, the worst he ever had

Kif I do wish you all the best but am not sure if there is a miracle cure other than lots of pumping and feeding - I am sure Tiktok will tell you whatever you need to know

I guess that's what I mean when i say 'last stand'.

I'm off to the post office tomorrow a.m. to pick up my supplements (did I choose good ones? I went for the motherease branded ones 'more milk plus'). Then I'll feed him as much as I can, keep our days easy and try to be very stingy with the formula (I'm keeping logs to try to monitor whether we're gaining or losing ground).

I've been very generous with the formula since saturday because, frankly, I got scared. He got his first bottle on top of a very screamy week when he just started to refuse boob.

I weighed him the thursday that week, and in three weeks of feedathon he'd gained just under 200g - taking him from 2nd centile to under 0.4th centile. Hv/bfc person talked to me about how I'd been feeding, and said that she couldn't suggest that i try anything different, and given that it didn't seem to be working, her professional opinion was to bring in two in not three formula feeds to rectify a worrying situation (and well done for getting so far).

So the escalation. really, is 5 days worth.

I have a suspicion that in those three weeks he had gained more weight, but actually lost weight in the final week. Hence my flirting with a 'thrush' diagnosis. I may be right - we may have been doing OK, but then he got a sore mouth and stopped feeding effectively.. it's just that 'off the chart' - not to mention scream-y - is beyond my tolerance level for how far I can keep going on blind faith in my milk supply providing what is needed.

he's been much happier - but super hungry... like I said maybe maybe he has some catching up to do.

Kif, I'm no expert, but I thought a drop in centiles at around 4 months was OK in a fully BF baby?

DD dropped 2 centiles around this stage and fed for Britain for a few weeks (like went from 5/6 BFs in 24 hours to up to 10) and then it all settled back down again for another 6 weeks or so.

Please don't tell me you started giving that much formula on the basis of just two weights, Kif...and that he gained 200g in 3 weeks and this was thought to be bad at his age??? And that someone who purported to be a bf supporter suggested three formula feeds from zero?

err... yes? But also the fact that he was crying a lot more than usual - in particular screaming at the end of a feed - and that three weeks of endeavour wasn't improving things at all. And that 'off the chart' is a frightening place to be with a baby who's not happy.

kif i think you need some advice from a counsellor about how much formula to give and when while you are trying to sort this out. at the least it'll give you some more confidence and it might help to solve the whole thing! have you got helpline numbers?

Are the people on the helplines likely to be more experienced and knowledgeable than the rl bfc?

I was at a bf group this morning (unconnected to one where ds was weighed), and I showed her red book & the log of our feedings. It was nice to chat, but not hugely useful. (mainly well done and good luck).

There are a few others driving distance - but wouldn't they all be roughly similar?

I think you do need to be sure the people you come accross at bf groups are actually bfcs...or at least find out what training they have as I dont think the title bfc is protected iyswim....who runs the groups you go to? Is it a local authority one or run by one of the bf organisations. Some might just be MWs or HVs who have had a little extra training & some may be fully trained bf councillors (like LLL, NCT or ABM, BfN) and some might just be peer supporters who have done a short 12 week course. Phoning the bf helplines though does guarrantee that you will speak to someone who has had proper training in Bfing as all the volunteers who take calls have to be trained by their respective organisations

surely a fully trained bfc would do more than you described? i think tiktok is right in describng them as a bf supporter - lots of people have been on those short courses and i'm sure they are great but you need fully trained expert here.

how is it going anyway?

IME the people at the LLL are hugely knowledgeable and supportive, with experience and resources far beyond any midwife or HV I have met. I would urge you to phone them, Kif.

She was from BfN leading a group - that's not a bfc? The lady before was sure start. She seemed to know her gubbins with the tinies - and I totally understand why the focus of her knowledge and concern wouldn't be on a case like me. When you get teeny little 2 w.o. preemies who won't latch, it rather puts my concerns into perspective.

In 2 kids worth of problems never tried LLL - are they the best?

I've got my witches brew from the postie - started taking it. Do I need to be super-rested for this to work? My base state is running ragged after 2 kids, and frankly the house is lunatic untidy. I'm prioritising hydration.

He's had 2 4oz bottles so far - but bf loads too (through the night then 4 decent sessions since we got up).Think I over-formulad him yesterday, because he had a sore tummy in the evening.

Thanks for messages of support. I'm one stressed bunny on all fronts at the mo'.

Ds had very good weight gain which plateau-ed for 3 weeks. I didn't think he was feeding well so got him weighed every week in that time. The HV said that it was nothing to worry about.

The thing about bf, as a book I have says, is that it is like religion; it requires a leap of faith. It is so much easier when you can see exactly how much they are taking, but alas, no gauges on our ample bosoms...

I would definitely speak to a properly qualified bf counsellor. The advice you've been given sounds a bit suspect to me...

Ok, well, I've talked to a lovely lady from LLL and going round her house tomorrow afternoon for her to watch Ds feed. It's a fair drive - dh will have kittens. (he thinks I should try to take it easier with the kids, and rest on my laurels being proud of my bf achievement so far).

I'll keep you posted - wish me luck.

(p.s. just persuaded Ds in the merits on a nap rather than an extra 4oz... trying to be less trigger happy).