Is there a link between the declining rate of breastfeeding and the normalisation of porn?

[Lio]

I've been mulling this over for a while but need to hear what others have to say as I'm not getting very far on my own.

The thread where crystalpony said that the thought of breastfeeding her children repulsed her (here ) was an eye-opener for me. Mears says on this thread that there are a lot of women who find the thought of breastfeeding repulsive (for the record, crystalpony said she didn't find it repulsive that other people breastfeed their babies, just that the idea of her breastfeeding her own was repulsive - I don't want to re-ignite anything).

Then I was again taken aback by the thread where a lot of MN-ers said they would post topless for a lads' mag for £50k (here )

Plenty of things on Mumsnet, such as this brilliant post from Monkeytrousers (sat 15 April, 18:05:36) had led me to assume (dangerous!) that the prevailing attitude towards lads' mags was that they were not a good thing, so I was surprised to read so many people saying they would consider being photographed for one.

So then I was wondering if there is any link between these two shifting attitudes towards breasts. It would be helpful to know whether women in earlier generations have felt that breastfeeding is repulsive, either in general or for them in particular. Anyone know a midwife/bf counsellor old enough to know about this?

I have tried googling this to see what (if anything) has been written about it, but once you type in 'porn' you get a bit swamped.

Hmm, I'm not sure breastfeeding rates are currently declining. I thought they were at a low in the 70s, and are maybe going up now? I hope?

I do agree that the whole 'get your tits out for the boys' attitude doesn't make bf easier, though.

Hmm, that's what's slowing down my thinking, I actually don't know much about when bf rates started to dwindle and why it is thought to have happened. Do women in poor countries have the 'luxury' of finding it repulsive?

no lio they don;t!

I read the sheila kitzinger book, breastfeeding your baby, she makes the point that in countries where breastfeeding is culturally the norm, it rarely fails..where as here , we have the alternative to bf and also exposure to porn/ lads mags and the idea that breasts are solely sexual

I think it is an interesting point (and yes,wasn't MT's post superb and so true?!)

I know lots of women (mostly from less advanteged socio-economic groups) who think breastfeeding is repulsive,both in terms of doing it themselves and seeing other people do it.
In my mother and baby group,one of the women wanted to take a picture of us all but when she noticed I was breastfeeding,screwed up her face,put the camera down and said 'I'm not having that on my photo.'

(Interestingly,she was a woman who had undergone gruelling and lengthy IVF and it struck me as so odd that she could put up with that level of invasiveness but not the idea of breastfeeding.)

That's all rather off the point though isn't it?

Another thing i don't get is that some women argue they are pressured into breastfeeding or that society has abnormally high expectations of mothers.
I don't think that at all. If you do try and go the extra mile I think you are at risk of being thought a loon. A culture of 'Let's all be crap together' seems to prevail far more than one of 'I'm doing better than you.'

When I talked to my friends about not wanting to breastfeed, some of them felt the same way and it transpired in conversation that their mothers had felt the same way (as had mine) so it you could perhaps summise that those members of an earlier generation may have unwittingly passed that attitude on to us....

When I posted my feeling etc, I explained that it wasn't a sexual thing for me, but I can't say what it was for my mother and my friends mothers, just that they too didn't feel inclined to breastfeed either.

By the way, thanks for claryifying my comments in your OP before I got another pasting!!!

Hmmm, from what I know, there were a couple of factors in why bf declined. First of all, medical professionals preferred formula, because it's more standardised. They can tell how much a baby is taking, they can put it on a chart. They can put babies on schedules, and keep them in giant nurseries away from the mums, in hospital, and feed them at regular intervals, in a standardised way.

Secondly, historically, better-off women haven't tended to breastfeed. They used wet nurses, and then later, formula, when it was available. It was expensive, but it gave them more freedom, and (in theory) let them keep their girlish figures. So because better-off people did it, it became the aspirational thing to do. (This is the same reason why, in some countries, people put coke in baby bottles. It's expensive stuff, so it must be good. )

No I think it has more to do with changing attitudes and the increased availability of porn.

Years ago women were expected to be presentable, to dress up and to cover up, and be modest iyswim. As time has gone on, women have become more independent, and have been more at ease with their bodies and thus going topless on the beach or wearing a low cut top that shows off your cleavage has become more acceptable.

As for porn, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that it?s more widely available now. not that there?s more of it, but that there are more ways to access it. In years gone by, if men wanted porn they had to go into a shop and bjy it, and for some, the shame of being seen doing that was perhaps just too great, and consequently a lot of men probably didn?t bother. But now if a man wants to buy some porn he only has to click on the internet in the privacy of his own home, and no-one need be any the wiser as to what he?s doing.

And of course with increased demand comes increased supply, and more women, who are now happier with their bodies, are prepared to benefit from their assets and to be paid for men to look at the parts of their body they would probably look at anyway.

Thanks for that, lulumama and moondog. And moondog, I'm not sure if it is off the point: it's a big and complicated topic and I think that your experience of the photo not being taken while you were bf is part of it. Am slightly nervous of having started such a serious thread, but I really want to know what people think. I'll do a nice simple one asking for help with fish pie or something next time

NQC,I think it was more to do with the fact that people discovered you can flog something to people (despite the fact that you can make it for free.)

I must say,even though I am the Boudicca of breastfeeding,I couldn't find any fault with Crystalpony's comments on the other thread.
If she finds the thought of b/feeding repulsive so be it.It doesn't make me angry,just sad.

Am slow typist, thanks to the others for joining in too, and hi to crystalpony who opened my eyes to this in the first place

Ah tes Lio.
Thought of tits being flashed inappropriately (in her eyes.)
On refection,she is the kind of woman you can imagine mooning drunkenly on a hen party.

Interesting question.

A tough one. I mean that, I dont think that porn has caused a decline in women giving birth vaginally, thats for sure.

And, there is no reason why the same cant be for breasts and breastfeeding. But, I do agree that there have been many comments in the past on here, and in RL, that women feel their breasts are either for one or the other and not both.

You're right, moondog, that's certainly part of it. And I bet the formula companies used to be really shameless in their marketing.

(Formula used to be something you made up at home - hence the name. You had a formula for what you were supposed to do.)

Oh and moondog, just for the record, I'm not from a disadvantaged background

I'm just a normal everyday woman who stands by her decisions (right or wrong) and I'm willing to accept opinions and thoughts about those decisions from others...

I'd be quite interested to know where the evidence comes from that a majority on non-breastfeeders are from the lower end of society, as there were a couple of posts to that effect - think Xenia said similar. I assume there have been studies into it?

NQC,when you start reading about how formula companies marketed/market their products and constantly try to dodge and shimmy it renders you speechless with rage that people can be so immoral.

"I know lots of women (mostly from less advanteged socio-economic groups) who think breastfeeding is repulsive" this is obviously very complex - I just wondered, in bsolute contradiction to the points NCQ raises below, whether Moondog's observation, if consistent with statistics, has anything do do with the fact that women from less advantaged socio-economic groups are more likely to be economically vulnerable in relation to men ?

Baby Milk Action is a real eye opener for those wanting to know more.

Blu,yes,very interesting thought.

Agree Blu. When the attitude is from those in lower socio-economic groups, is that because they are more likely to adopt male views? Why? Less power?

Still stunned when I read anything anti-breastfeeding, truly truly stunned. I have clearly led a very sheltered life. I feel aggrieved that I have to think twice about feeding my 15mo outside my home/close family homes. In fact, I have unhappily accepted that I probably won't even try.

i FF both of my children, i wish i had persevered with DD, but hey ho, didn't know about mumsnet then!

the array of formulas, powdered and ready made, ready measured out sachets, different types of bottles, teats, bottle warmers, bottle holders, follow on milk, toddler milk , christian dior bottles FGS! the overwhelming marketing of formula in a consumer driven society is likely to overwhelm the mostly peer support driven breast feeding network.

also, so many women have HVs who advise badly re top ups and early weaning and solids etc..

of course formula feeding is more reassuring, you can see how much your baby is getting , you can see the list of ingredients, you are assured this is as close to breastmilk as possible. so many debates on here re the best formula is a testament to that

(And sorry to bring up again, but still cannot find "Politics of B/Feeding" - all links seem to lead to Amazon!)

Walnut,I happily fed child over 2 everywhere with no aggro.
Did you try the ABM site for the book?
You could try your local LL/ABM/NCT branches if they can lend you a copy.That's what I did.

I see lots of evidence of "I've done my bit now" after 6 weeks (or sometimes 6 months - magic number?) b/feeding and I wonder whether all these women are really conscious of the whole debate. (I'm not criticsing formula-feeders for making that choice)

Lulu,isn't the whole choice thing overwhelming though?
Where do you begin?
I have got to the stage where if offered too much choice I run screaming in the opposite direction.

Thanks moon, I'll try again. I shouldn't think twice about feeding ds and probably wouldn't get much reaction, but I know I wouldn't handle it very well so I just steer clear. Of course, it's so easy now because he doesn't feed so often and will have cow's milk when being looked after by Mil. (Although boy does he want his mum when I get home from work on those 2 days!)

Honestly,people really aren't looking.