BF is going from bad to worse and I'm not sure how much longer I can keep doing it

[Olihan]

DS2 is 5 weeks old and so far has been exclusively bf. However, he's still not back to his birthweight of 10lbs 2.5oz and has only been gaining weight at a rate of 1 - 2 oz a week. Last week he was feeding almost continuously and I saw a bfc who helped me with my latch but that hasn't made any difference with his weight gain. He did stop feeding so often and was going 3 hours between feeds but that stopped at the weekend and he's back to constant feeding for most of the day. He seems to feed, fall asleep, falls off the breast, then wakes 5 -10 minutes later and does the same again for most of the day. He will occasionally have an hour or two of being awake and not wanting to feed but that's only once in a day.

The HV who weighed him on Weds told me to keep going with the bf, feeding him every 3 hours round the clock which I've been trying. DS2 has other ideas though and will only go half an hour to an hour between feeds through the day and then sleeps from about 9pm until the early hours of the morning. It is impossible to wake him up when he's in that phase and if I do manage to stir him he will suck a couple of times and fall asleep again. So he's going about 6 hours without feeding and I don't know how to change that.

I'm also finding it tricky to keep him latched on in the way the bfc showed me. He'll suck a few times but then moves his mouth so he's where he likes to be. I end up taking him off almost every other suck or leaving him with a 'bad' latch for a bit before starting the whole battle again. I think the shape of my boobs may be contributing to the problem as I have to support the boob he's feeding on with one hand and his neck/shoulders with the other. As soon as I stop supporting my boob he loses the latch. But I can't spend an hour plus in the one position, I end up in agony.

Tiktok suggested breast compressions and I've got the Jack Newman stuff on it feom Kellymom and tried it but I can't tell when he's actually drinking and when he's just sucking. It hasn't made any apparent difference to his sucking pattern when I've been squeezing so I'm either doing it wrong or it doesn't work on me.

I just don't know how to make it work. I'm in tears a lot over it, I don't want to switch to fomula because I failed with bf with my older 2 and so want it to work his time. I feel like a total failure knowing that I can't bf when it's the most natural thing in the world. I just don't understand what's going wrong and why it's getting worse not better. What else can I do to make it work this time? I'm in tears just writing this down because formula is starting to feel like it's inevitable.

I also feel like I'm not being fair on ds1 and dd. They're only 3.1 and 17 months and they need me but I spend literally all day apart from the half hour preschool run, making the lunch and putting dd down for her nap just sat on the sofa with ds2 attached to my nipple. I can't take them out on my own because they are too youg to play independently in the park, etc and they won't sit down for long enough in a cafe etc for me to manage a full feed because ds2 doesn't seem to do a 'feed', all day is a feed.

So, what do I do? Do I just accept that I've done my best and I'm just not a breastfeeder, or is there something else I can do to make it work? All I want is to be able to feed him and know that he's full and won't need feeding for a couple of hours.

Soory if this doesn't make much sense, I'm getting myself into a right state over it all but don't know what to do or the best.

Well done for being what sounds a good mum all round.

My 3rd didn't put on weight for weeks (July last year) and I had to express to monitor amounts and feed at least every 3 hours - even then it was slow + bloody hard work as I didn't plan to express that early on and found it such a struggle. i also had mastitis and cracked nipples and thrush. When it came to night time, if she slept for 6/7 hours then I let her - there was no way i was getting up to feed her as I needed the rest and sleep in order to keep well and produce the milk.

It is even harder with having another two so try to get as much help as you can. You have to make some sacrifices and the older two won't hold it against you when they are older (they won't even remember).Its natural to feel a failure, I did too along with thousands of other mums. Its such a hard time of your life in the early weeks and months.
I honestly took about 11 weeks to become comfortable and established with breast feeding. I'm not sure that you can do anything else other than perservere if you feel that strongly about it.

I see it as my duty to breast feed and feel that I have to make certain sacrifices but that is fine as I know it is such an important thing (to me as psycologically and for my future health) and it is for such a short time in the scheme of things.

There does have to come a time when enough is enough though and only you can make that decision, hopefully with the support of those close to you.

I am still breast feeding and she is almost 7 months, been weaning since last month and she is doing great, not a big baby but very strong and healthy. it was the thought of all that that got me through those difficult early months.

Lastly, why do mums always blame themselves? The baby also needs to learn and often get it wrong too!

When a breast feeding baby is tongue-tied it only manages to get the watery milk and not the fatty hind milk hence the very slow weight gain. Tongue-tie is far more common than you'd think affecting up to 10% of newborns. It is usually goes undiagnosed and is the cause of many women giving up on breastfeeding. My tongue-tied baby just bit on my nipples causing bleeding,cracked nipples for 6 weeks until the problem was sorted out. When I expressed milk which I did to top-up what she was just managing to get for herself,there was often blood in the milk from all the biting. She fed for hours on end and I used to dread her waking up for my next torture session.It was so painful physically and mentally, and I felt I was starving my baby.

In the olden days before formula, midwives kept one fingernail long and sharp to cut the frenulums of tongue -tied newborns. My HV was trying to be helpful when my baby kept losing weight and advised me to eat lots of fat and sugary foods to 'make my milk better'. There was nothing wrong with my milk, it was just my baby was unable to manouvere her tongue to get what she needed. There is still a lot of ignorance about tongue-tie amongst health prof, and I would urge anyone who is having problems like those described by Olihan and Choclatekimmy to find someone who knows about tongue-tie to have a look at your baby. NCT bf counsellors should be able to tell, although mine didn't. She does now and has written several articles about it. There were several of us diagnosed around the same time.

My baby was seen and sorted out at 6 weeks with a simple surgical procedure. I am still bf and she is now 21 months.

I agree with Mimizan its definately worth checking that there isnt a tongue tie, both my yougest two daughters had it and feeding was awful until they had it divided, its something that is also frequently missed unless m/w, hv or gp have had experience of it. I didnt recognise it

it might be worth contacting the nearest place to you and ask if your baby could be seen
here

Sorry I didn't manage to get back to you last night - dh wanted to use the pc.

I hope you are feeling a bit better today. I thgink it's always a good idea to give yourself a "target" date to aim for, so you can see how you feel about everything then. It's hard to know that you are making the right decision about anything when you are feeling tired, emotional and generally overwhelmed.

I'm sure it's a good idea to get ds checked out for tongue-tie, so you can see whether it's that that is causing the problems.

The other possibility that occurred to me was - are you sure that ds really is hungry every time he cries during the day? (BTW, I realise he is your third child!). It's just that, sometimes, it can be easy to forget just how much time newborns spend sleeping. After a baby has been fed, they are usually ready to go back to sleep after 1/2 hour or so. Over-tired babies can get a very frantic and panic-cy (sp!?). They can root frantically because they know they are uncomfortable, but they don't know what the matter is. If ds is flailing about and almost fighting you with his arms and legs, he might actually need to sleep. Signs of hunger include baby opening and closing mouth, turning head from side to side, putting fists in mouth. Once I had figured out that dd2's frantic cries meant she wanted sleeep, rather than milk, life got much easier.

Last of all - re the breast compression. What I did was to let dd feed normally at first, but when she started dropping off, then I would squeeze my breast and she would start suckling again. When she came to a natural pause, I would giuve her a "breather" for 2-3 seconds, then do it again.

Hope this helps - and good luck to you.

I can sympathise with you. My dd2 seemed to feed all day long and then sleep all night, when she was 6 weeks. She'd sleep from 10pm - 6am. The very pro bf hv suggested I really try and wake her at 2am (ahem, the problem I had was waking up myself ). I'd change her nappy and swish a few cold wipes over bottom - felt awful doing it! Once she was feeding more in the night the days got better. HV said nighttimes are important for increasing milk supply. Very difficult at first to wake dd2 up, but she got into the routine of it.
My other 3 are not as little as yours (8,6 & 2) when dd2 was 6 weeks, but I felt guilty just feeding dd2 all day. You have done fantastically well to get this far.
As LucyJu said - give yourself a target. I can remember with ds1 giving myself 10 days, then 3 weeks, then 6 weeks and it made me feel good when I reached it.
Take care of yourself.

Olihan - sympatheties my darling. do you have a local la leche league, baby cafe or hospital drop in session, etc ? it sounds to me like you need a bit of a boost, some confidence that you can do it. your baby sounds like he could do with some night feeds too (can you co-sleep ?) - not because i am trying to make it harder for you, it's just that night feeds are excellent for boosting mum's supply and ensuring baby puts on weight.

any family able to help with the older 2, cooking, etc so you can get some rest during the day and just concentrate on feeding baby ?

ruby - i am sorry but i found your assertion very difficult not to comment on: "infant mortality is high because bf does not always work"

NO - that is NOT the reason infant mortality is high in some poor countries. in fact it is the REVERSE of your assertion. infant mortality is high because not sufficient babies are bf in some countries (i.e. infant formula mixed with dirty water, babies not gaining the benefits of natural immunity which ONLY mum's bm can provide, etc. as a result causing illness or death when it may have been prevented through bf)

i don't see how the assertion is relevant to olihan any way.

as for the baby gorilla (didn't see it) - some baby animals do die because they are not able to feed or because their mum isn't able to feed them. again, this is irrelevant to humans. the reason we are different from animals is that we are able to access help and information in a way that an animal is not able to. it is called "survival of the fittest".

Just to clarify:
Ruby sauid infant immoraltiy was high in the natural world because of feeding, not poor countries.

Don't know if that's true but that was what she said.

Lets PLEASE not turn this thread into a bf/ff bun fight.

It's about supporting Olihan. Giving her the support, encouragement and information to carry on if that's what she wants, or the reassurance that's it's OK to feed another way if she decides she needs to do that.

Olihan I hope you're feeling better today, and the encouragement given is helping. Do try to get some support locally and as soon as you can. I get the feeling you want to give this your absolute best shot to make it work, and it certainly sounds like you're doing that.

He's a lucky little boy to have a Mummy who will try her best for him whichever way you end up feeding.

Smiley - I have just re-read ruby's thread and realised that she meant the ANIMAL world (humans are NATURAL too right ?)

It annoys me that on many of these threads when mums ask for bf support they are told, oh, it's ok love, if you want to switch to formula, it's ok.

OF COURSE it is ok to switch to whatever you wish and no one is saying anyone is a failure (that is just a self perception) but PLEASE do not tell a mum looking for bf support how it is ok because some gorillas have problems too

I think it was humourous Yellowrose and Olihan took it that way, check her lighthearted remark back.

let's just agree that this thread is about support, OK?

It's Olihan's thread and she needs support right now, not another bf/ff polarised MN debate.

ok, in further light hearted banter then, here is what I found when I googled "gorilla breastfeeding" - just to counter ruby once again - it was on
www.literarymama.com

"I didn't know then that for primates, breastfeeding is more of a learned behavior than an instinctual one. Female gorillas in zoos who have never seen other gorillas nurse learn to breastfeed by watching videos of breastfeeding gorillas. One mother gorilla had so much trouble, zoo keepers called a La Leche League chapter for help. League members took shifts nursing in front of the mother gorilla's pen until she got the hang of things"

See, we have a lot more in common with gorillas than we realised, for them bf is a matter of imitation too !

Olihan, I really sympathise. In a similar boat myself. I really wanted to breastfeed my dd having failed with both ds1 (aged 3.5) and ds2 (aged 18 months). DD is 15 weeks and I'm now expressing breast milk and giving her formula as I can only produce enough for 2 feeds. I feel exactly as you do - guilty because I'm not giving my other 2 children enough time and tbh I just cannot afford to devote all my time sitting on a sofa feeding - I wish I could. As it is, my dh does a tremendous amount to help without me expecting even more of him.

I so hope it works for you - have you thought of asking your bfc for another position which will be more comfortable for you and for ds to stay latched on.

Olihan, hope everything's going ok. I just wanted to say that I'm really impressed that after problems with ds1 and dd you're trying again at all with ds2. I had difficulties with my DS1 - 5 weeks of bf with little weight gain, mixed feeding for another 5 weeks or so before i gave up. DS1 was feeding for short periods, not latching on properly, coming off the breast screaming, me in tears, and in the end i decided that our relationship with each other was more important than whether he was bf or ff. Anyway, after that I know how hard it can be to even have a go with the next one. I was so lacking in confidence with DS2 (now 2 weeks) - couldn't quite believe it when the mw told me he was back to birthweight after a week, and I'm still examining every nappy like a soothsayer and wondering when his skinny little thighs will start to get all plump.

One thing that's really helped me this time is managing to bf lying down at night - feel vaguely human in the mornings. If you do manage to wake DS2 up for night feeds, this might help?

Anyway, keep with it if you can, and if not, remember all the good things you've already given DS2 so far with bf - he's a lucky boy to have a mum who cares enough to persevere.

ruby i am surprised that you say you are PRO-bf and you have successfully bf and yet made such a silly, silly comparison with gorillas.

also it seems the gorilla you saw on tv may have been living in a zoo, which would explain the difficulties she was having. living in a zoo isn't natural.

most animals who live in their NATURAL habitat have absolutely no problems with bf and as formula does not exist in their world, it is literally a matter of life and death whether they can bf. but i guess you know all this already, right ?

Yellow rose, it was a lighthearted comment, made about something Ruby had seen that afternoon, that did amuse olihan.

Please drop it.

I think this thread has probably now been successfully hijacked into these polarised positions. It REALLY hacks me off.

What a real bloody shame.

Women need support proper emotionsl support, not people with single minded agendas.

Olihan - I have a friend who was in a very similar sitaution to you. She desperately wanted to breastfeed her third child after not getting breastfeeding established with her first two. Weight gain was a problem (formula didn't actually sort that - her babies are slow gainers).

Anyway, what she did was try Domperidone 10mg, 3 times a day for 10 days. Ity can be prescribed for free or bought over the counter. The other name is Motilium. It is actually used for stomach bloating but the side effect is that it increases prolacting levels which in turn increases milk production.

I am telling you about it so that you know that there is treatment that can help. It is not the first thing to do.

In the first instance you need to be feeding at least 3 hourly. Now if your DS won't feed then what you should do is express in order to stimulate your breasts to produce milk.

When you are able try holding him skin-to-skin - that stimulated him to look for feeds. Night feeds may be more successful like that.

I started a thread about changes I have learned recenlty to advice about positioning and attachment. Perhaps you are not actually in the best position when you are feeding if you cannot maintain it for the feed. You might be using a pillow that you don't need which is altering the position the baby needs to attach properyly, expecially if you have large breasts. It is all to do with the 'angle of the dangle' - he might need to be lying almost under your breast if it is large. Wherever he is lying his head and body should be in a straight line. Support his neck but don't hold his actual head. Aim your nipple up his nose so that when he attaches on he gets a good mouthful of breast. Hios cheeks should look full and you should be able to hear him suck and swallow. At first he will suck quickly to get the milk to let down so he may have 3 or 4 sucks before he swallows. Once the milk flows he should swallow after every suck. Towards the end of the feed he will have rapid sucks again with more than one to each swallow.

Definitely worth having tongue tie checked - I would imagine BFC did that already though.

Hope that helps a bit for now.

smiley - you do seem to have an annoying habit in defending ruby and an even more irritating view in assuming that i have an agenda.

Why does my defending Ruby annoy you?

I found your comments inappropriate and said so.

I now declare my intention not to reply to any further comments on this on this thtread, as I state again it's not about a bf/ff battle it's about support for Olihan.

I'm glad Mears has come along with some really good advive, I hope it helps. Sounds like you're doing a great job Olihan, try to get all the support you can and DO NOT be hard on yourself. You really do sound like you're doing your best and no one can ask anymore. AS I said before he's a lucky little boy.

Olihan - your story reminds me of my experience with ds who did not regain birthweight for a good month. I know it's been 5 weeks for you but both your baby and mine were over 10 lb at birth. That is pretty big for a baby, but birthweight is not an indicator of eventual size.

I could not get the hang of bf with my ds till he was 10 weeks old; I knew the latch was wrong and could not seem to put it right. In the end, it righted itself. I'm sure this will happen for you if you persevere without resorting to formula.

good smiley - please don't comment further. i am too bored to read any of it.

what a terrible shame to hijack a supportive thread for the problems of an INDIVIDUAL with aggressive BF 'advocacy' if it can be called that.

Olihan, I do hope this hasn't affected you PERSONAL decision about what to do with DS in any way. How is he today?

Olihan - I missed commenting on his birth weight when I first posted back to you. Elasticwoman is right - big babies can be slow to regain and in some cases this is due to the fact that the baby has been born heavier than it 'needs' to be. The baby then drops the centiles until it reaches the level of centile it 'ought' to be. This is a really common phenomenon.

How are you getting on?

oh dear, oh dear and FFS, I am sure olihan is an intellignet woman and can make her own mind up without ref. to gorillas...which is exactly what i was trying to say.

if you wnat to make it all sound like i have an agenda and trying to somehow subvert someone's decision to mix feed or fully ff, you are very very wrong. at the end of the day i lose very little sleep over how anyone wishes to feed their baby.