The expression 'breastfeeding nazi'...

[emkana]

... is offensive and meaningless, just plain horrible. I really wish it wouldn't be used on Mumsnet anymore - I find it very upsetting that people do.

I've written this on another thread today, but I feel so strongly about it that I decided to start another thread.

How about 'breastfeeding fanatic', if you need to describe a certain type of breastfeeding supporter?

JJ, no I know you didn't - I really wasn't accusing you of using the N word. Funny isn't it, because that's not how I see the advice on Mumsnet - I suppose you have a different perspective to me. What I see are lots of people very cross because their HV won't recommend a specific brand of formula for their perfectly normal baby. In that case, I do think it is fair to say, they are all really the same. Neocate etc are of course very important for babies with milk allergy (max 7% of babies) and as far as I know, never the first choice unless as you say, there is a very strong family history of severe allergies. I accept that in that case, yes, of course, a dr's advice should be sought. But that doesn't appear to me to be the main reason people ask about brands of formula. I still think it is entirely fair to say that all commercially available cow's milk formulas (ie the stuff on the supermarket shelves) are much of a muchness (and from the evidence, goats milk ones too) in terms of nutrition etc. Of course, as you say, specific medical conditions may make it necessary to have different formula on prescription.

This is quite interesting, as a personal champion of breasfeeding, I have always thought formulas were muich of muchness, such ignorance on my part!
However when dd needed follow on, at cessation of b/f at 15 mths (she is small and needs the extra few calories it provides than cows milk) I had to bone up on a few formulas, oh but would she drink them... so it came down to the one she would drink! The Hipp Organic one, pretty box too for a bonus and nice shiny re sealable bag. I do imagine that if I was unable to b/f I might need to research a little more, this is very important to know.

OK, let's amend that to say that for 90%+ of babies, all formulas are much of a muchness (except soy) then?
My boy is clearly not v fussy as he never seemed to notice the slightest difference between brands! My cat is fussier about catfood

The research on hydrolised formulas is ongoing - I think for babies with a high risk of allergy who are not breastfed, these (very expensive) formulations may be useful. \link www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14583987\The Cochrane Review{} is prob worth reading for people who are interested, and it also points out that long-term effects have not yet been looked at. Have to say, the evidence is not overwhelming, but they have't been around a huge long time, so maybe the story will become more detailed.

Most of the Qs on here about formula are for babies for whom there would be no benefit in the expense and hassle of speciality formulas (I know speciality formulas can be prescribed for those who need them, so the cost is born by the NHS, not the parents - for other babies, the formulas would not be prescribed, and actually, I am not sure if the hydrolised ones are available off prescription).

But I'm not sure I agree with that. (as an aside: how do people get computer work done? I'm spending waaay too much time here today.)

There are official recommendations for lots of stuff in formulas : the amount of Vit E, the amount of iron, the amount of LCPs, and so on. I can't really believe (because I'm cynical) that all formulas satisfy these recommendations. It'd be interesting to see which do and how that matches with anecdotal experience of particular formulas. (No, not scientific, I know, just interesting. )

I don't know much about it, except from the allergy angle. My son was allergic to milk and even though I exclusively breastfed, his paed made me have a can of Neocate on hand just in case -- he was pro-breastfeeding, but it would have been disastrous if something had happened to me and there was nothing avail for the babe to eat.

Anyway, it'd be interesting to know, wouldn't it? I wonder if any of them meet all the guidelines...

Bother - link didn't work....prob did something wrong. Try this:

cochrane

They're not guidelines, JJ....in the UK these are statutory requirements.

Tiktok, it is possible to buy Nutramigen and Neocate off prescription (or I should say, I could at my pharmacy), but they are really expensive.

Do the statutory requirements meet the recommendations? (An honest question!) I know that sometimes in the US, at least, the requirements give more leeway than the recommendations of the committees.

Just curious.. hmm. I could probably google that.

The thing is, as far as I understand, what babies need most is vast amounts of sugar and fat - which is what comprises most of breastmilk and formula. The other stuff is in far smaller amounts - all commercial formulas contain what is necessary for health and development - ie vitamins and minerals. But what breastmilk contains is stuff that is alive - hormones, enzymes, human fatty acids - and that simply can't be replicated. The fatty acids in formula aren't human and therefore may be important, but may not have the same role at all. My preference would probably be to choose a formula with vegetarian LCPS and probiotics in it...but...there is no evidence that these do actually confer extra benefits to a baby.

I agree that formula isn't the same and won't ever be the same as breastmilk.

But different formulas are different (you know what I mean!)-- for example, I probably wouldn't advise someone (not that I'm in a position to do give advice, but if they asked..) to give an infant a probiotic formula. The proposed benefits are, to me, outweighed by the fact that they might cause susceptible infants harm.

This is the site with the European commission's position papers.

It's interesting that you wouldn't buy the cheapest formula for your baby, though.. I mean if they're all the same. (FWIW, there seems to be decent evidence that LCPs are worth it.)

I think I need to put a block on google and mumsnet for the day. Yeah, right, like that's going to happen.

Personally, I would (if I had to) go for a basic brand that had been around for a long time, without any fancy probiotics or LCPs in it, or which claimed to have a new formulation that did something other formulas didn't.

The statutory requirements don't prevent anything being added to any formula, as long as there is nothing missing, and the manufacturers stick to the statutory recipe. I don't think probiotics, prebiotics, LCPs and nucleotides have been around long enough, frankly, to be sure they don't have long term effects. None of them is from a human source, so just 'cos breastmilk has them, doesn't mean formula is 'better' with them.

I am inherently suspicious of new formulations, like Omneo Comfort, which contains potato starch and whose main ingredient is glucose syrup. Please - how is this in any way 'close' to breastmilk?

But some sort of bog standard infant formula that's been on the market for 20 years or more....any serious side effects of the ingredients, beyond the deficiencies of it not being breastmilk, are likely to have shown up by now.

Babies with a high risk of developing allergies, are, as we have said, a different thing.

That's exactly it JJ, exactly, re your post on the response people get when asking about a formula...that's what gets to me...we all know the benefits of breastfeeding, but why do some people act as if a poster hasn't asked about formula at all, almost ignoring their question as if it is so wrong to feed a baby formula that if we just ignore it than the nasty mum suggesting it will stop considering it as an option...i know i'm being extreme and that people generally have the best intentions, but it feels really awful to be treated like this: to say i'm considering which formula to use, or i'm considering topping up with formula and for someone to respond, 'well done for b/fding thus far, now here's how you should go about continuing to do so' argh, it really really gets to me. aloha, the much of a much-ness thing gets to me when said in the context of: they're all poison, and breastmilk is nectar of the gods iyswim?

I have to say I am impressed with the reasoned and reasonable arguments that have been expressed here!

Having lost most of my father's side of the family to the Nazi's and being pro-breastfeeding myself I find it incredibly offensive.

I am continually amazed at how heated the discussions about b/f vs. bottle get on here though. Because although I did chose to b/f for 18 months I've never had the slightest problem with bottle feeders and dd went onto a bottle for half the time at around 10 months. I've heard v. opinionated arguments from both quarters, unfair breast-feeders and unfair bottle-feeders.

I also wanted to say a lot of this depends on where you live. I'm in a v. working class area of inner city London and was seen as a bit of a freak for breast feeding, especially for so long. ALL the moms near me bottle feed and I often felt quite embarrassed to feed dd in public. Though that didn't stop me!

Soph,
I do know what you mean and I couldn't agree more. I took a friend's advice in the end but whether it be the colour of the tin, the price or the smell, most people have a preference and it is nice to hear what other people think without feeling guilty all over again about not BF....

BR

Furniture - you are right. On MN we hear from mothers who feel embarrassed to be bottle feeding, and feel uncomfortable even telling people that's what they are doing.

I hear from many women who feel exactly the same way for breastfeeding!

Women say they have been told they are selfish for breastfeeding (because the baby really wants formula/because grandma wants to have a turn), exhibitionist, mad, stupid....

It's what happens when you become a mother. Other people are quick to judge anyone who doesn't conform to what their idea of a mother is, and because you're a mother, you may be more sensitive to these judgements and make them more negative than they are.

I mean, as an example, a look becomes 'a dirty look' or an offer of help is interpreted as someone saying 'you can't cope', or an interested question about how you are feeding becomes a criticism. (I actually never, ever ask this of new mothers.....if they want to tell me, they can. It's safer that way!)

Even today, Sophable feels some breastfeeding supporters on MN have said formula is poison and mothers who use it are 'nasty' .....that's what she feels, though she knows (I think ) no one has said it.

Sophable, not everyone thinks like that - ie bullied by any mention of breastfeeding. I distinctly remember one woman posting about formula and several people - yes, including me! - suggested that she might also consider breastfeeding. There was a bit of an outcry about this, but then the poster herself came on and said that having read the thread she was actually now thinking about breastfeeding and she hadn't really considered it before because she had come under a lot of family pressure not to breastfeed, which she found hard to resist, but found support in Mumsnet. She wasn't in the least bit upset or offended, and in fact found it helpful to have other options put to her. Quite often people post things like "How shall I punish my child for X" and people say stuff like "Oh, it's not so bad I think you might try X instead", or when people say I want to do controlled crying with my four week old people often post to say please don't, and posters are very often grateful and open minded about discussing another option. Often people haven't necessarily made up their minds and remember, there is a lot of pressure not to breastfeed for some people, and a bit of support might be just what they want.

i hear what both of you are saying, but how would it be if i asked a question about breastfeeding and a load of replies came back about how wonderfully easy it is to bottle feed and how convenient and how dh can do it too etc etc etc. there would be an outcry (i think). aloha, i agree that a mother might need support in b/fding, but there is a difference between this and appearing not to have read in a post that she is asking about formula feeding. i don't think that i feel that these mothers are bullied (as you say, that is in the ear of the hearer/ eye of the beholder kind of thing), but i do think they are judged and patronised and dismissed as not having made an informed decision. of course this doesn't happen loads, but i have seen it happen on mn and in RL too...and it annoys me. maybe i shouldn't get annoyed as i am very comfortable mostly b/fding with one bottle feed a day...but i feel as if mothers that choose to bottle feed are treated sometimes as if they don't quite understand what they are doing by well-meaning, but sometimes (sometimes, not always) misguided advice givers who think they know a better way...

i hope that is clearer.

Sophable, I am so intrigued by this that I clicked onto the breast and bottle feeding archive and looked at lots of threads and I honestly cannot find a single one that is as you describe. I say that in complete honesty. I have actually found several posts saying things like 'It's time to give up breastfeeding' and "go for the bottles' without a single negative comment about those posts. In every case the mother is asking for an opinion and opinions are given IMO very gently. I would be interested to see if you can find a thread that matches your description. I'm not trying to fight with you, which is why I went to look at the archive (when I should be doing other things) and can't find any hostility there at all and plenty of pro-bottlefeeding comments too.

the thing is, if i give an example, i'm liable to cause offence to the people doing the ignoring the question thing iyswim...so i'm going to bow out and acknowledge that this might all be total paranoid delusion on my part...i don't think so, but as i've said, it could be the way in which i read posts...i know i'm being chickensh*t, but i can't bear the thought of loads of posts denying that there was any intention of ignoring the original poster etc etc...what you are asking, i think, is that i get personal. which i understand, but am not prepared to do...i hope you understand this...

sophable, you will also find a LOAD of messages about how to get b/f babies to take bottles when mothers need to go back to work or want to change to mixed feeding.

I think tiktok is right about being a mom and being sensitive and misinterpreting someone's words when it's a subject so close to one's chest ('scuse the pun!)

Tiktok - couldn't agree more re the "judgement of mothers" comment. Its also very difficult in areas like this which are so, so emotive, e.g. am I doing the best for my baby?

So, from an unlikely source, a plea for peace. Surely we are all trying to do the best for our children, and isn't that enough?

Good point Sophable. If anyone extolled the virtues of bottle feeding I have no doubt they would be shot down in flames.

Tiktok,
You hit the nail on the head when you mention offers of help and interested questions being interpreted as criticism. This was certainly what happened in my case. I became hypersensitive to any mention of feeding as I'm sure a lot of mothers in my situation do...

However, I didn't and haven't since come across anyone who was pro-bottle feeding. I have always had the opposite reaction to the one you mention. Time and again when feeding in public I feel peoples eyes judging me. If I had a penny for every time I had to explain why I didn't BF past 3 weeks I'd be a rich girl.... when I was breastfeeding all I got was smiles, no one ever asked me why I didn't bottle feed of if I intended to introduce a bottle.....

Sorry rambling message... not making much sense really...

BR