'Oh, just ram 'em on and hope they stick...'

[Gizmo]

Here?s a question: has anyone who has had trouble breastfeeding in the past 12 months had a health professional who thought the best way to help was to grab the baby?s head and your boob and ram the two together as if trying to unblock a sink?

I?m 32 weeks pregnant and starting (as you do) to worry about the postnatal period and particularly getting feeding sorted. DS1 and I had hellish trouble with getting BF established, which resulted in his readmission to NICU for severe jaundice and weightloss after a week. At the time I put it down to one of those things ? some babies just won?t breastfeed ? but I?m mulling it over again now and the more I think about it, the more I?m convinced this is a situation that was largely created by bad handling. I was on my postnatal ward for 2.5 days, during which 3 midwifes tried to help us feed by grabbing DS?s head and holding it against the breast forcibly, while he wriggled and wailed. I even did it myself when I got home . End result was one seriously unhappy little boy with no interest in feeding whatsoever and a rapid decline. Even when we were readmitted to NICU and spent three days being ?re-educated? on breastfeeding, some of the midwifes there were doing the same thing: it was only the introduction of nipple shields that finally broke the impasse and gave DS a clue what to do.

I?m determined to BF no 2 (another little boy) and will turn psychomummy if anyone tries to do the same thing again. But before I go off the deep end, is there any justification for this ?sink-plunger? approach? Any studies on the subject? Has anyone seen it work? Do people still do it ? DS1 was born 4 years ago and it may be that the health profession have spotted that this is not such a great idea

They did that 'ramming' thing to me on the postnatal ward, and so did the community midwife.
didn't work and he was on a full formula diet by 3 weeks.

Hi Gizmo - I'm 33 wks and had exactly the same thiing happen to me last time. However by the time I'd developed a migraine, scratched half my skin off due to PUPPP and had DS screaming of hunger I gave up and went for the bottle (and my nice drugs that weren't compatible with BF).

All I can say is thank goodness this time round we've got MN and people like tiktok (among others) who actually know what they're on about!

pmsl@ woodbines

Hey Liquidclocks - snap (turned 33 weeks today) .

Well it sounds as if it's still endemic, despite there being no research to support the practice. At least this time I shall have mumsnet and know enough to fend off the rammers.

Am turning into Cap'n Gizmo here: 'stand by to repel rammers!', 'man the torpedos on the starboard nork!'

You won't be alone cap'n Gizmo - I'll be fighting with you - any rammers come near me they'll wish they left their head at home

I was told that any pressure on the back of a baby's head (rather than base of neck) triggers a reflex that makes him arch his back. This is exactly what you DON'T want him to do when latching on, and is why the best advice is to hold the baby only at the base of his neck rather than his head. The baby has to latch himself on; you can't make him do it by pushing and especially not on his head.

I hope things work out for you this time around

The first breastfeed with DS, the midwife took my boob in one hand, DS in the other and kind of shoved the two together. Not entirely successful but he did feed for a little while.

The next feed that I asked for assistance at I got a midwife who said that it was better for baby to sort of find it himself. She encouraged me to get topless for skin to skin, lie down to feed as I was knackered and then put DS next to me in roughly the right position and told me to tickle his top lip with my nipple. Worked a treat. (Unfortunately I fell asleep feeding and DS changed his latch and got me sore!)

When ds was very first born midwifes tried to forse bf, but while on the word i was encouraged to let him find my nipple himself. Like suzi2 i fed him lying down, i rubbed colostrum around my nipple and also onto his lips, and then put my nipple just above his top.I never had any problems from then, no cracked nipples and good weight gain (7lb in 16 weeks)

Hi Gizmo

I had problems establishing breastfeeding too and had one midwife do this to us. Exactly how you discribed. She even said "he's got to learn!!!" as she shoved his tiny head into my breast as he cried and wriggled. Luckily though none of the other midwives had been like this and so alarm bells rang and I said that I wanted to do it myself and DP managed to get rid of her.

Luckily I had been taken under the wing of an excellent midwife who wrote up a feeding plan which specified expression and cup feeding every 4 hours with a maximum of 15 MINUTES spent trying to get DS to feed on the breast. Because, she said, any more than this and he would develop negative associations and refuse to feed altogether. We followed this and DS was feeding well from 4 days.

Maybe you could get in touch with a god breast feeding counciller and write up a contingency plan (similar to mine perhaps) for what to do if your baby doesn't breastfeed. Maybe at what point do you start giving expressed milk etc etc. If anyone does that to you and your baby, just tell them to F off! or (if you want to avoid conflict) tell them that you want to try it on your own and thanks, byeee.

Good luck

It will be loads easier next time around though I bet. Even if your baby is a reluctant feeder, at least you will know what you are doing. x x x

I really wish I'd been able to read this thread just a few days ago - I had my son on Sunday and have been in hospital till yesterday as he wasn't feeding. Sounds like quite common problems - he was incredibly sleepy and showed no interest, not much of a rooting reflex or a sucking one the times I did manage to get him on. I wouldn't describe what I was taught to do as sink-plunging, and actually the midwives at the hosp were incredibly helpful in sitting with me patiently trying to get him latched on. However they were all quite 'hands on' and so I didn't notice that most of them were not holding his head to get him on, as they didn't describe what they were doing and obviously my view was a bit restricted, so when I tried doing it myself I now realise I have been making the head-holding mistake, among others.

He does now seem to be learning how to do it a bit, and about half the time I can latch him on and get him to suck, but I do think I've done a lot of damage as the other half of the time he gets upset and frustrated pretty soon after I get him anywhere near my breast, unless he's a bit sleepy. He also starts sucking once or twice then falls asleep, which is the other thing Tiktok described. It's making it incredibly hard work and I hate to see him getting so upset when all I want to do is have a snuggly breastfeed. He always wants his hands in his mouth, too, and they get in the way of the nipple, so often I'm struggling to move them at the same time as getting a good position - not very relaxing for either of us.

What can I do to help him associate coming to my breast with good things rather than the stress it currently is? Is it too late and will he always cry at first now?

I am very lucky that I am still breastfeeding at all as he was immediately given formula in hospital when he lost a lot of weight, and the fact that I am now 100% bf is down to one lovely bloke, a paediatrician who disagreed with the others and sent us home telling us to ditch the formula completely, don't worry about top-ups and just breastfeed as much as possible.

2labs. Have loads of skin to skin time. Get cuddling all day in the bed/bath/wherever skin to skin if you can. That should help him with the breast/bad association. If you're both cuddling up in the nuddy, then if he wants comfort then you can just point him in the direction of your breast and see if he has a shot. And it's a great excuse not to get out of your bed and not to see too many visitors!

I'm sure the experts on here will have other ideas, but this is certainly what I hve been told.

2labs - you can turn this situation around. Skin to skin; having a bath with your baby on your chest; lying in bed just chillin' with him on you with no pressure to feed....all these things will help.

Babies often find their own way when given the chance.

Honestly, 'hands on' as a routine way of 'helping' mothers is just awful, and I wish midwives could see this thread. If 'hands on' is used at all it has to be done very carefully and sensitively.

You haven't been well-supported in hospital....giving formula is hardly ever needed and with a baby who was not sucking, you should have been supported and helped to express right from the first few hours. Is your baby doing ok now? Today is day 5-6 and he needs to have stopped losing weight, he needs to be producing several soft yellow poos each day, and to be weeing plenty. If you have those signs you can be confident he is getting what he needs.

Perhaps the community midwife can help you, as well.

Thank you so much for your replies - I was expressing colostrum too but not anywhere near enough to get them to be confident he was going to gain weight. He seemed to have lost 15% of his birthweight by Tuesday morning (2 days old), which is when he was put on the formula/expressing schedule, but then gained 100g by the next morning. I say 'seemed' as the last paed was sceptical that he had been weighed correctly - he said he would have been a lot more obviously dehydrated etc. in his opinion.

He is pooing several times a day (and weeing - not sure how much as it's hard to tell in his nappy but he does it like a fountain sometimes when we change him!) but the poos are not yellow, more brown atm.

My milk is in now and I have been a bit engorged which seems to make it hard for him to latch on, so I've also been expressing a bit. Last night he did feed often but it was literally a few sucks before he fell asleep each time and it took a lot of encouragement to get him to do a very few more sucks... then 20 mins later he would want to be fed again. Is this OK (apart from meaning no sleep for me!) or is there a way to get him to do more proper, longer sessions?

... Meant to add that the hands-in-the-mouth thing is pretty constant. I was assuming it meant he was hungry but is that not necessarily the case? He obviously finds it very soothing to have his fists in his mouth (more so than my breast ) but it is a big hindrance!

all my health visitors apart from this one basically did that I am not sure it worked though I found the gentler approach works best

2labs, all babies as young as yours are 'primed' to suck and if their hands happen to go anywhere near their face they will certainly suck on those

It happens more when babies are a bit fussy and not yet able to focus on breastfeeding sufficiently well, and their hands start to wave a bit....and then the chances of their hands getting near their face are increased.

It can make bf awkward while this phase lasts.

I too would be sceptical of a 15 per cent weight loss on day 2 - it's a lot. I would wonder about accuracy of the weights and accuracy of the reading. Dehydrated babies don't look dehydrated, though - this is one of the difficulties. They only look dehydrated when they are very, very ill. I do not think it is likely your baby gained 100g overnight.

Please don't worry about him waking up after 20 mins. This is good and will stimulate your milk. If the feeding is effective - that is, your baby is transferring milk and not just lying there - frequent feeding is fine, esp. when a baby has had a tricky start.

Hope you continue to make progress!

Tiktok - did you know you're an absolute star?

I just had an overwhelming urge to type that by the way. Put it down to pregnancy hormones.

ta!

I haven't checked, Waswondering - tbh I'm trying to avoid the hospital (planning for homebirth) as they don't fill me with confidence generally (I wonder why? ).

However, I guess if they have any knowledgeable breastfeeding types hidden on their premises, they'll wheel them out for antenatal classes. Am seeing my midwife next week, so I'll ask her then.

Thanks so much tiktok - that is v helpful. gizmo is right; you are a star!

I'm not sure how effective his feeding is sometimes - obviously I can tell when he's vigorously sucking but quite often there's barely a movement in his jaw and he seems otherwise asleep. I guess I will just have to keep at it and monitor his output!

I feel a lot better knowing what I should be doing, so thanks once again.

Good to hear you feel better, 2labs.

Being asleep and no jaw movement means no sucking and swallowing ie not feeding, so you're right not to assume that it's not enough just to be on the breast. But many babies like to be asleep that way, and if they have had an effective session before they get to that stage, then that's ok

omg gizmo!!

i had EXACTLY the same in july last year when ds was born.
he was severely jaundiced (was in hosp for first two weeks on transfusion list) but obviously he was not yellow straight away so noone noticed.
he was very sleepy due to this and the hospital staff decided he was tired as i had had a long labour.
in the room where ds was born, the midwife tried to help me latch him, gently and it was fine, he was just too tired so we left it for a bit so he could sleep.
i was then moved to the postnatal ward where all the smothering began.
an old nurse (i know her name and exactly what she looks like, i will never forget and will be looking out for her in late aug/sep when i have ds2) burst into my cubicle and tried to latch ds on. (he was asleep in cradle atill at time) she grabbed him out, told me to produce a boob and started pinching me violently then slammed, and i mean slammed him into my boob. his moro reflex immediately went crazy, his arms and legs were going everywhere, he was arching his back and screaming, scratching my boob trying to get away.
this went on a few times till i discharged myself, in an absolute state.
they tried to get me to stay the night to get bfing established! yeah right!!
we were back within the next 2 days when the jaundice began to show and ds was admitted to the ward and i met a breastfeeding councillor. she was horrified when i showed her what he was like.
as soon as i lay him aginst me to begin feeding he began rucking and screaming.
she apologised profusely and said she was sorry he may never take to it as he now had strong phibia to the breast a lot of babies get when they are handled incorrectly during latching on.
eventually he would have a little go with a shield but my supply dwindled in the end as ds needed topping up with formula so it could be monitored how much he was taking to fight his jaundice.
i know what to do this time hopefully. i know the signs of jaundice and i have been swotting like mad on latching etc.
i will do what i should of done in the first place and get my mum to show me (she fed 3 of us)
i wrote to the hospital and complained.