Read this shocking article about the damaging effects of formula and the immoral practices of the companies who peddle this junk.

[moondog]

From The Ecologist magazine.

Here.....

Grim reading.

I want to stick up for the hospital where I had DS here. The breastfeeding support was tremendous, and they do have breastfeeding counsellors who were lovely. All the telephone numbers for LLL and NCT were given on 1 piece of A4 paper, which included the numbers of women who lived locally who would come round and give 1 to 1 help and support.
I think this is far from common though, isn't it?

Perhaps its indicative on an attitude that upsets people? I can't tell you, I am so unbothered by not breastfeeding ds3 for very long that I have no idea how long he was even fed for. I can see that people do get very upset though, and I know someone who is struggling to feed now (following a vile birth). I think a thread title like this might upset her. Her mother's spent the last week trying to ensure she doesn't go off the deep end about it. I certainly won't be recommending mumsnet as a place for her to get support.

Yes that would be better zippi- and would save the volunteer being phoned at some unsuitable hour.

Actually the bfeeding support at my hospital was good as welll. One really useful thing they did do was an antenatal bfeeding workshop- an afternoon with dolls to practice on.

I too doubt that the use of one word, once, is responsible for the guilt and distress expressed on the thread but I do strongly feel that the continual use of emotive terms such as the words "junk", "failed" etc as applied to formula and breastfeeding help no one and do contribute to the development of guilt and distress. As a one off it wouldn't matter nearly somuch but I suspect that people feel that this thread title is an example of the perjorative terms widely used by many (not necessarily on mnet) to describe formula.

I think that it's a very great shame you don't think you can recommend MN as a place for bfeeding support, Jimjams

In my ideal world, bfeeding counsellors in hospitals wouldn't just see women postnatally, they'd see them antenatally too. It would be the norm to do so.

If more women had positive experiences with bfeeding support in hospitals, they wouldn't feel bfeeding was "rammed down their throats" (laughalot, your story makes me very sad - especially since the stupid midwife who shoved boob and newborn baby mouth together repeatedly and unsuccessfully has now put you off trying with your next baby - as is totally your right, of course).

But there are lots and lots of discussions that upset us all. NQC has said she can't bear natural birth discussions as she finds them so upsetting. No-one has suggested that we avoid posting about our births in case it upsets NQC, though. Why is breast v bottle such a no go area? We need to take some personal responsibility for our own feelings, surely.

I think women who want to breastfeed or are struggling with it, also need more support from their partners (or other family members). Partners need educating re breastfeeding too and also need to be more pro-active when there is more than one child in the family. ime.

Very @ blu going.
Well done, moondog. Not.

I suspect that a thread title "interesting article in the Ecologist about breastfeeding" would not have generated quite so many messages.

I suspect a thread title in childbirth of "having a c-section means you couldn't be bothered" or something equally ridiculous would have.

I don't think Zippi that it is just in media circles that the culture of bf'ing is at odds with the disadvantaged groups that you talk about. I know it is stating the obvious, but for many reasons it is not the norm for "disadvantaged" groups to bf. This is not just because of the lack of bfing counsellors available either postnatally or antenatally or because the NCT is middle class. This thread is mostly made up of middle class mothers discussing their situations, alot of working class mothers (for want of a better term, I don't want to offend anyone), don't even consider bfing - this is touched upon in the article. I would be very interested in reading any other articles which focus on this, rather than the sensationalist "junk" aspect (although the tactics of the formula companies makes very interesting reading too).

I don't think that breast and bottle should be a no go area, far from it. If someone posted a thread title eg "Read this shcocking article about how mothers who don't have natural births are lazy" then I would be up in arms about that too on NQCs behalf. It's not about topics being off limits, it's about the way we express ourselves within debate.

x posts jimjams

I think I must have been on this thread for too long as I am now laughing inappropriately loudly at

"having a c-section means you couldn't be bothered"

I think I'll take a break

I've written and almost posted several times on this thread so far, but have so far stopped myself

The title is quite sentationalist but pretty much par for the course for Moondog - although that doesn't mean that every one should indulge her - indeed many have not!

I've sratched the sore over my failure to be able to bf DS, so many many times and in the past articles like this would have me in tears. But older and wiser that I am now, I realise that it does no good to keep going over and over old ground. I did what I could at the time with the resources I had available to me - I was a good enough parent to my DS!

Parenting is so full of complex decisions, roads we might have travelled, paths we might have crossed and not taken. By and large people take the route that they do, because they believe it is in the best interests of their families to go that way.

I am really, really troubled by many many threads on MN, and the way in which they present the perfect parents choices as the only valid ones. Often wading in with more and more 'facts' to reinforce their views. But there are two issues - firstly perfect parents in all aspects of parenting are probably as rare as yetis and secondly, children really don't need perfect parents, they need good enough ones!

I wonder about those who position themselves as making the optimum choices all of the time, why do they need to do that! It is as if, making the choices they do isn't 'perfect' enough until they have validated them by trouncing those who have made 'lesser' choices than they have. It smacks of the deeply insecure, and of being a social clumsy bod.

Of course we can all come on these boards and fire off our views and take little heed of the effect they have on others. And yes, they are public boards and we can post what we like - witter, witter, witter. By all means carry on like that if you wish, but it seriously devalues what MN is about. By loosing the likes of Blu you risk turning this into a much less rich and wise place. If you want to turn MN over to the 'I'll say what I like brigade' then do, but I think you will rue the day that you did so!

laDiDaDi We're twins

In fact I have to go so I am going to leave you to post my view for me Anything you say I agree with.

Agree sminkopinko - a massive loss- there's a thread in SN for her

I agree pollyanna, for me that would have been a much more interesting article but probably wouldn't have made such a good headline for the ecologist.

oh soapbox I agree with every word.

But but but Franny... I really don't think anyone has said it shouldn't be discussed (have they?)
In fact, I am pretty sure most people have said yes, lets discuss it - lets just accept the way to discuss something is not to use inflammatory language as that is hardly ambassadorial and unlikely to achieve a reasoned breast/formula debate.
I'm sure that is the context of this thread after the OP isn;t it????

Well said Soapbox.

Blu's not leaving is she

Uhm, I'd say I had x-posted there, but I was just slow

Soapbox that's a brilliant post.

I think there is a difference between "having a C section means you're lazy" is a direct judgment on the mother concerned and in any event is just a moral, subjective prejudice, not actually based on anything.
whereas this article is a. based on scientific analysis and is therefore at least partially objective (with the obvious biases in any scientific surveyr) and b. is having a go at the companies who manufacture and market formula, rather than the people who give it to their children.
I think the use of the term "junk" in the title is unnecessary but I don't think it should override the real and substantial support offered to women on this site in all areas, or should prevent anyone from being recommended to anyone. People like tiktok - very far from being militants/zealots (pretty unpleasant terms to use for such dedicated women as bf counsellors imo) offer wonderful and sensitive advice.
I think that people who feel guilty/regretful about not breastfeeding or not breastfeeding for "long enough" (IME) feel that way because they know it matters. It is not helpful, indeed it is insulting and patronising, to pretend that what we feed our babies doesn't matter. If we are going to get angry, then it should be with a culture that provides such obstacles to bf that only a minority of women do, but yet so many women feel such passionate and painful regret about not doing so.
that's what I am angry about. women don't need glib words. they need a change in culture.
a brand manager for breastfeeding, with some serious £££££££ behind it.
that's my plan.
oh and one woman one midwife, would help.
oh and where the F is moondog???

I absolutely agree, Soapy - even though I am often on the "wading in with more facts" side of things, especially when it comes to bfeeding.

But that's only because I feel so strongly that I want everyone to have all the facts at their fingertips when they meet an ill-informed health professional.

I'm bright enough to realise that bfeeding's not right for everyone's circumstances!

And I do often feel insecure about other aspects of my parenting, that's true - I've said so on here before

I would recommend Mears, Pupuce or tiktok for breasfeeding advice, if they could somehow access them privately. But I wouldn't recommend mumsnet to anyone at the moment for all the reasons in Soapbox's post. Especially if people like Blu are going to leave. She's a massive loss.

Excellent post, soapbox!