Pope urges breastfeeding in Sistine Chapel

[marmitecat]

news.sky.com/story/1194030/pope-urges-breastfeeding-in-sistine-chapel

Go Pope Francis

I have to admit I felt a bit awkward feeding in church with dc1 so this is pretty much the ultimate way of dispelling that worry.

oh sure, no probs. It seems this Pope is quite a shift in difference, and a bit of time will tell if he is the real deal that millions have been wishing would come along.

Curlew these are solid things. The church moves slowly, it isn't going to turn around this year or next and say it is okay to be gay and women can be priests. One day, it will come, but the way has to be prepared first. I really do feel this is the start.

Apparently the cardinals wanted him last time, but he said he wasn't ready.

aciddrops "I do not believe that sex abuse is an intrinsic part of the Catholic faith"

no, but there are things intrinsic to the Catholic hierarchy and structures (as an institution in the world) that promote sex abuse:
secrecy and protection of their own
traditionally, absolute authority in the community
weird ideas about sexuality

Trying to brush away what happened, so often, in so many different places as "not intrinsic" is not possible for many. It may look to you like a series of failings on the part of individuals but to me, and many others, it looks like a vast, horrific and violent logical conclusion of the way they run things - and an absolute barrier to taking the RC church seriously as a possible spiritual home

The Number One place children are most likely to experience sexual abuse is in their own home or with family acquaintances. "Family structure is the most important risk factor in child sexual abuse. Children who live with two married biological parents are at low risk of abuse. Children without either parent are 10 times more likely to be abused. Children with a single parent and a live in partner are at the highest risk of sexual abuse. They are 20 times more likely than children living with two biological parents to be victims of sexual abuse" Sedlack et al 2010

Therefore the sexual abuse of children living with a single parent is due to the horrific and violent logical conclusion of how the parent runs things?

Oh, don't be silly, honeyandrum!

Pope condemns abortion Suppose it was too much to hope he would keep his nose out of other people's wombs.

Gotta love Catholics who talk about child abuse as 'that old chestnut'. Yeah, right, tens of thousands of victims in every continent occupied by human beings, paedophile priests still being protected from the law, but it's only an 'old chestnut' so what are we all worrying about...

HoneyandRum - if married couples are the optimal form of social and family care, why is the Catholic church so big on celibate single people being in charge?

Being Catholic isn't about ticking off agreement to every point of the Church's official line. It's about the theology at the heart of it -- the sacraments. Sick to death of both non-Catholics and right-wing ones labelling as "cafeteria Catholic" anyone who agitates for change or exercises his or her right to an informed conscience.

For me (and I'm about to convert: I've felt strongly Catholic for several years and now, with this Pope, feel truly welcome) it's actually less important whether Francis agrees with me about gay marriage than it is that he is giving common sense a chance to filter up from the rank and file and into the hierarchy. He's modelling a proper sense of priorities and placing concern for the poor, social justice etc. at the heart of it and yes, together with serious institutional reform. He might think of the pastoral care of gay people or, as recently, the adoptive children of gay couples as a matter of mercy. I don't, because I don't believe there's a sin to forgive there, but he's showing sound practice. And of all the Catholic faithful, the people he's singled out for rebuke are the ones who want to declare others unworthy who strip the joy from the process and try to act as moral arbiters (see Evangelii Gaudium).

So yep. Don't agree with everything he says -- not by far. But seriously in favour.

I did not quote the Catholic church I quoted a social scientist.

PS And I really, really hope this commission is going to be the real deal. People (Catholic people, btw) like Bishop Geoff Robinson have been doing incredible work, sadly on the margins, and I hope that this too will be brought into the centre.

Perhaps the vatican could start by disentangling itself with shady dealings and money laundering activities of the Mafia and maybe consider spending some of the £170 Billion Pounds that the church owns ( making it the single biggest private asset owner in the world) actually helping the poor rather than just encouraging them to procreate beyond their means.

This bears repeating imo. It's so obvious that religion is just another branch of politics. and all about social control, I'm utterly bemused as to why people can't see this

Because maybe people who engage with religious institutions have some kind of theological perspective that means they identify with the faith community, in the way that people identify with other imperfect and often corrupt institutions like political parties, governments, nation states...

Honeyandrum - those statistics are meaningless without knowing what the absolute figures. 20% higher than what? How many children do Sedlack et all think have been abused (and on what basis?) and how many of them came from homes with one parent, or two parents, or two married parents who were both the biological parents? How reliable is the reporting of child abuse (I believe the answer is 'probably under-reported' which would skew the figures rather.)

What's more, we know full well that many allegations of abuse have surfaced post-Saville. Which wouldn't have been included in a 2010 report. Presumably all the kids in care homes who reported abuse but were told to shut up weren't included in those 2010 stats.

I believe it is true that children are more likely to be abused by someone known to and trusted by the family. That's how so many priests have been able to get away with it. (Not just RC, either.)

Gotta love Catholics who talk about child abuse as 'that old chestnut'. Yeah, right, tens of thousands of victims in every continent occupied by human beings, paedophile priests still being protected from the law, but it's only an 'old chestnut' so what are we all worrying about...

But as mentioned earlier, the church is taking real steps to address this. I like to see the whole picture, not just a part of it.

Would you stop watching TV because of Dave lee Travis, William Roache, Rolph Harris and Jimmy Saville?

"Because maybe people who engage with religious institutions have some kind of theological perspective that means they identify with the faith community, in the way that people identify with other imperfect and often corrupt institutions like political parties, governments, nation states..."

But being a member of eg the Socialist Worker party isn't the same really - they aren't going to threaten you with damnation for eternity if you go private for your ingrowing toenail. However a comparison with oppressive totalitarian regimes is possibly more apt.

"But as mentioned earlier, the church is taking real steps to address this. I like to see the whole picture, not just a part of it."

The whole picture is that the institutional structure is perfectly designed to create corruption and scandal, unfortunately. Yes steps can be taken to fire-fight aspects of it, but it will be a losing battle unless the whole organisational structure and doctrine is changed - which won't happen.

Honeyandrum - actually I do have severe misgivings about traditional family structures which in origin are about allocating women and children to men to do as they like with.

society is gradually mitigating this by putting structures and support into place to allow women to leave abusive men and to provide children with people outside their families to talk to, and be protected by - but this is all relatively new stuff. As a woman or child, not being abused at home used to be a matter of pure luck, because of patriarchal authority, which is always potentially abusive, that is what it is designed for

I like the Pope a lot. And I'm a bit at the "oh it's all PR, amazing that a camera just happened to be there" folks. He's the POPE, there are cameras everywhere he goes!

Also what Koba said, right down to the converting. (I'm thinking of it)

Maybe it's an indication of how bad things were and how ripe for change that Francis is seen as such a breath of fresh air?

Iirc, his name was thrown about as a contender at the time Benedict was elected, so there has been some sort of a shift in the hierarchy for some time.

I find myself agreeing with Pan here, and HoneyandRum and Kobacat. What I find especially encouraging is the survey of Catholic opinion on various matters pertaining to family life, and also the rebuke to those who concentrate on matters of sexual morality to the exclusion of pretty much all other areas that came at the start of his papacy. Kobacat's comment 'the people he's singled out for rebuke are the ones who want to declare others unworthy who strip the joy from the process and try to act as moral arbiters (see Evangelii Gaudium)' is really pertinent here.

Here is Francis' take on certain kinds of Catholic:
(from Evangelii Gaudium)
'...the self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying. In neither case is one really concerned about Jesus Christ or others. These are manifestations of an anthropocentric immanentism. It is impossible to think that a genuine evangelizing thrust could emerge from these adulterated forms of Christianity.

95. This insidious worldliness is evident in a number of attitudes which appear opposed, yet all have the same pretence of “taking over the space of the Church”. In some people we see an ostentatious preoccupation for the liturgy, for doctrine and for the Church’s prestige, but without any concern that the Gospel have a real impact on God’s faithful people and the concrete needs of the present time.'

I think that constitutes a criticism of the tendency to groupthink and even before that, to form groups, whose aims end up pushing aside 'Jesus Christ and others'. It is also a criticism of groupthink in the church as a whole, overidentification with the group and allowing the institution to develop its own dynamic that runs roughshod over those it was intended to serve.

I think this is an overall idealogical shift that is really just reflecting what has been reality at the grass roots level for quite some time. Over 20 years ago when I was a Catholic school girl we got both the "official" sex education rhythm method class, as well as the 'use condoms, go on the pill, etc' class. I teach at a Catholic school and we have staff who are gay, staff who are in de facto relationships, staff who are divorced, and single parents. Our priest went to the house warming of a member of staff moving in with his same sex partner and blessed the home and their relationship. I'm a single mother by choice and my son was baptised by the bishop. The reality of what happens in individual parishes has long been out of step with the official line from the Vatican.

"Would you stop watching TV because of Dave lee Travis, William Roache, Rolph Harris and Jimmy Saville?"

So are you equating the BBC with the Catholic Church?

As usual, the only person speaking a jot of sense on this thread is Curlew.

The "infallible" leader of the most corrupt, morally abominable organisation in the world is slightly less stupid than the last one - and you're all falling over yourselves saying how perfectly marvelous he is.

If he said anything truly sensible like...."Look guys, it's 2014. This God character probably doesn't exist, and if he did we have no reason to suppose that he wants us sticking our noses into other people's sex lives - so let's sell off the art works worth billions & distribute it to charity, and all embrace reality without these medieval delusions", he might be worth applauding.

So, he encourages breast feeding? So what? So does the NHS but it doesn't presume to do so on the say so of a fictional sky dwelling autocrat who is more fussed about where people stick their penises than the pleadings of mothers holding their starving babies all over Africa.

I won't have time to come back to the thread, so if you want to tell me you're offended & I don't understand Catholicism be aware that a) I already know and b) yes, I do.....that's why I don't like it.

"Pope Francis has issued his strongest condemnation yet of abortion, calling it a "horrific" symptom of a "throwaway culture" that placed too little value on human life.

He said it was was "frightful" to think about early pregnancy terminations"

Pope Francis on abortion.

I think Pope Francis is a very human Pope. Catholic ideology is based on creating heaven on earth, but Pope Francis acknowledges that none of us are actually saints as yet and our all people should be dealt with compassion rather than condemnation. Benedict was a much more scholarly type of person and put the rules before the people, Francis seems to always put people first... I like him!!