the 'great debate'?

[Darcii]

this may be a naive question but what is all the anger and judgement about around breast or bottle feeding?! i am a first time 36 year old parent who is trying to breastfeed but struggling with the total lack of freedom that comes with it as i have had a very active and busy life before having my baby. i have looked around for support on the issue but can only seem to find arguments everywhere with either entrenched views or defensiveness.

as women we have fought for decades for freedom and choice yet seem to be continually judging each other on the choices made. what's it all about? why is there so much judgement on the issue? i am literally flabbergasted that what i feed my child is such a big thing. after all, if you looked at 20 people in a room you would be hard pressed to be able to tell who had been breast or bottle fed!

Also - there are lots of things that are supposed to be 'best' for our babies/children but we don't all do every one of those things. In this day and age, you just have to weigh up the pros and cons, risks and benefits and make the choice that's right for you and your family. Very few things are actually going to do your baby any harm.

Darcii - sorry hadn't read your concers re. lack of freedom when I did my previous rant !

I used to cry pathetically every time my DH walked thro the door in the first few weeks. But it wasn't because my baby was at my boobs all the time, it was because I was knackered.

If you speak to the formula feeders, you will find they are knackered too, because being a 1st time mum is bloody hard !

I found myself most comfortable at home FOR THE FIRST TWO MONTHS. This is coming from a woman who spent her entire 20's and early 30's in London, shopping and eating out, then going to disco and then, wait for it, casino, until 4 am and who spent a good many years living it up after work in the City.

After 2 months (seems such a long long time ago now that DS is 20 months) I was up and about everywhere. I fed him in the car, at family, friends, everywhere. If I didn't feel like feeding him in front of friends or family who didn't approve (I never wasted time arguing with people about it) I would just go into a bedroom, lie on the bed and feed my baby in peace.

Good luck with whatever you decide, but don't let your choice rest on lack of freedom. Once bf is established at around 4 - 6 weeks, bf mothers are generally very carefree and relaxed.

now i agree mothers are made to feel they have to rationalise their decisions for their baby.

i would have loved to breastfeed but dd wouldnt latch, wouldnt drink it expressed and basically spat it at me, but would drink formula, even though she didnt like it she'd drink it, so the right choice for my child, never felt i really had to explain/rationalise this to anyone as it was best for my child.

Must admit - although I didn't bf for long, I'd say it's easier to get out and about while bf - using bottles is a PITA if you are out shopping or whatever. Dead easy if at someone's house of course.

Darcii, my dh feels that the children have seriously curtailed his freedom. And he didn't breastfeed any of them! ( not that thats impossible, apparently but thats a whole other issue!!) But they have. He always wanted to visit China but the idea of taking even ds1 and ds2 on a long haul flight like that daunts us, never mind ds3 who is just over a year. It can be frightening to think that rather than just the cuddly baby, you have someone who will be hanging out of you for the next 18 years. Definitely get a breast pump though, at least you can share some of the load at the beginning!

Darcii, some VERY good advice and rational points-of-view and assessments of the situation on this thread (and believe me I've seen all sorts on here!). MI and moondog in particular though no disrespect to the other posters, I agree with so much that has been written here.

A friend of mine - who like most of us I feel - is a total control freak, decided v soon to just surrender to the needs of her son for the first months of his life. She gave up all ideas of going out/socialising/keeping house etc. I admire her so much for that - partly because in your situation I hadn't realised that that's what I needed to do and when things were going tits up I was in two bad places rather than just one (iyswim). Her words were "I am going to sit on the sofa and do this feeding thing and nothing else for the first six weeks at least, and when I start climbing the walls I will know it is time to do things" rather than feeling she had to do normal things to prove she still had a life etc. You do slowly get back the things you feel you've perhaps lost in the first weeks/months, you really do.

All the best. To answer your original question, I think the judgementalism comes from defensiveness and v deep-seated emotions (as MI put it better than me I won't go into that one).

lol at 'things going tits up' Very apt!

Oi Darcii,I moved house (alone!) when ds was 4 weeks. Dh away and dd was three.
Yup,you can carry on as normal with a baby!

Yes I thought I'd leave 'tits up' in...
I take it the moving was second baby, md?

Er,yes,or would deffo have had nervous breakdown.
Most galling thing was the removals bloke asking (nay telling) me to rustle up a cup of tea for them at both ends.
Bastards!

Darci I haven't read the rest of the thread but to answer your question about why there sems to be so many arguments about it, I think it's because there is still so much ignorance around the subject of breastfeeding and so much brain-washing about how breast is best but formula milk is near as dammit. This point of view (which is scientifically wrong) is promoted so strongly in our culture that those who want to challenge it get terribly irritated by it because it is so harmful and so pernicious, and those who accept it (which is most of us) can't really see why those who are getting so irritated by it, are, and tend to think they are mad lentil-knitting earth-mothers.

And of course, while you're going through it, establishing or giving up breastfeeding is a big thing - it ceases to be such a major issue emotionally, when you're further removed from it and you're busy worrying about headlice and homework.

Love your posts Caligula-so intelligently put as always

Darcii - my DS was a big eater too. He could go for a hour and be hungry again within 15 minutes. It was exhausting. BUT IT GETS BETTER. Those first few weeks SUCK.
But, the first time he stopped nursing for a second to look up a me and smile was magic.
It's worth it. All the pain, the exhaustion, the lack of freedom.
One of these days you'll look at your happy healthy little baby boy and think "I did that." It's a great feeling knowing that all the growing the little guy has done is all down to YOU and what you gave him from your body.

everyone is defensive and there is so much judgement because...breast IS best but everyone tiptoes around that as they don't want to make bottle feeding mums feel guilty.

agree with everyone that the first few weeks of your first baby can be hellish

I am about to do it for the third time in a few weeks and dreading it tbh

great posts all and thanks for answering the original question. i had a difficult pregnancy movement wise so have not had a lot of 'freedom' physically for quite some time. now starting to feel much more fit so feel like i should be doing things. that is probably part of my frustration.

i am also just so damn grateful to have this child (thought couldn't have one for awhile) that i am bemused by all of the debates and strong feelings - not just on this site but at work, in my family and definitely in the health service. all those posters and pressure about breast feeding as if there is no other choice and when i finally have the kid they just left me to it in hospital with no one offering to show me a proper latch or supporting me. very strange.

so thanks again for helping me understand the depth of feelings a bit nore. will just try to go with flow (eek!) and enjoy this time with my son. took advice and read a book earlier while feeding and cuddling him that had nothing to do with parenting - feel much better! :)

Darcii-you are so right about the lack of support and USEFUL advice for a breast feeding mom-
my tuppence worth (most things have already been said) is

1. If you have ANY doubts about technique length of feeds etc see a breast feeding counsellor privately if necessary_ im sure someone on MN could recommend someone good
2. The first few weeks are hellish-(I said to my dh one night 2 weeks in-'you know I could just leave and check in to a hotel-you could manage with formula-after all you're his dad' Just saying it made me feel better) BUT six months on I now feel very sorry for those of my friends who stuck it out for the first few weeks and then gave up-to my mind they survived the awful bit without getting the payback 'easy' or fun bit which came for me after about 8 weeks and then really easy after 4 months.
3. Whatever you do do not feel guilty-you will have a loving healthy child. I am stopping breast feeding because of going back to work-I cant express at work and sometimes feel guilty about not BF my child until the age of 1 (or 2 or 3 or whatever)-but life is really too short to beat yourself up. Repeat after me-happy mother happy baby....

Darcii,very good move to read something not to do with babies.
I read the Daily Telegraph motoring section in the birthing pool,much to the midwives' bemusement.

Darcii - while struggling to establish bf with ds, sitting for hours attached to a bloody industrial expressing machine, I read the whole Harry Potter series. Had been snobby about them before but then found I really loved them. And it was great escapism in those exhausting and bewildering early weeks. :)
Your point about the posters on the one hand, the complete lack of bf support on the other is exactly what I meant in my post - my experience has made me decide to train as a bf counsellor as soon as I can.

Darcii - regarding parenting books while you are tired and looking after a 2 week old, a mw who visited me at home saw a copy of Gina Ford on my table when DS was 4 days old and I was struggling to feed my baby (he wasn't latching) and said "oh, don't bother with that bloody book, burn it" !

The best piece of advice a mw ever gave me !

Knowing now what I didn't then, I would say that many so-called parenting books that pretend to know what they are talking about when it comes to bf, actually don't know a damn.

Said mw then reassurred me by saying that she had travelled all over Latin America with DH and very young breastfed baby and had the best time of her life. Didn't need to sterilise bottles in the middle of the Amazon, is what she meant

I do agree that breast is best (for most children) and happily BF my daughter for 7 months (with the emphasis on pain rather than pleasure for the first 6 weeks, then I promise it got so much easier) but can very much see why some people feel that their freedom is being curtailed - as an adult, who wants someone else to dictate what they can eat and drink?! After 16 months of mere occasional sips (or guilty glasses) of wine I was cockahoop to be able to do whatever I darn well pleased! Also, it finally meant that my very supportive husband could be even more supportive and actually do some of the late night feeds - bliss! So, although BF is a form of freedom (from the steriliser, etc) I can see that Bottle feeding has many plus points, with regard to a mother's own sanity!

Maybe Bloomsbury.
Personally,drank a fair amount when b/feeding.
Also,doing a lovely snuggly late night feed in bed was preferable to some of the other baby related tasks,which were obviously all delegated to dh as I was Feeding Our baby.

Moondog, am now remembering. Yes, spot-on.

to clarify ..meant the bit about 'feeding our child' rather than the snuggly bit late at night. Love my daughter but now really love my bed!

Please don't think that you can't drink or take medication when you breastfeed. You can. Of course not a good idea to down a whole bottle of Vodka. Not more than 1 - 2 drinks a week is what is recommended.

Darcii - congratulations on the birth of your little boy.
I was convinced that having a baby would not 'cramp my style' at all - and was ar a loss through most of my (short) maternity leave...was i to soend hours and hours sitting on the sofa with DS calmped to my nipple? But within 3 months I had taken him to greece (at 9 weeks) where b/feeding was the key to a stress-free travelling light holiday. I took him to promenade theatre perfomrances, and fed him, etc etc.
Actually, I think people DO suport other women who have made a choice that they have thought about and which makes them happy. A woman posted here recently about how much she enjoyed bottle feeding.

Do what is best for you and your baby, enjoy it, and take no notice of anyone else. You enjoyed 36 years of feminism to fall prey to worrying what people think?