Bottle nursing and coming to terms with FF from the very beginning

[raininginbaltimore]

I am 32 weeks with DC2. I have Bipolar disorder, this is a planned pregnancy with the support of my Psychiatrist although I have recently changed.

Old Psych had always been happy for me to give BF a go (I BF my son for 6 weeks, until I became too unwell, although this was before my diagnosis). Turns out he was quite blase about a lot and not really following guidelines. However, new Psych wanted me to be aware of risks which are quite high unmedicated.

I can't take my medication (lithium) and BF and they aren't happy to try new anti-psychotics in a post-natal woman. So I have been advised to only aim for a few days BF and then FF. Actually I think they would prefer I FF from day one. The main reasin being that my medication could take a minimum of 6 weeks to start working anyway, so waiting until I am symptomatic is too dangerous. The other issue is sleep, which is a major trigger of puerpal psychosis (I have 1 in 2 chance of getting this) and FF allows me more rest.

I am gutted. I really, really wanted to BF. I feel like a bit of a failure, like it is the one thing I should be able to do for my baby. I already feel slightly irrational at the idea of other people feeding her. Someone has suggested bottle nursing to me, has anyone done this? There is obviously extra faff and I know FF isn't poison but I am really upset.

I need to snap out of it and get my head round it. But then every time I go to antenatal clinic to see consultant the BF ladies are there (as they should be!) giving out badges, asking me if I am planning on BF. And I have to say no and tell them why (in front of whole waiting room). It isn't their fault, but it makes me want to cry.

ANyone got any tips on making this work from the beginning?

I expressed colostrum antenatally and froze it. Obviously you would need to check meds etc with your team but if you started harvesting colostrum at, say, 36 weeks then possibly you would have quite a lot by the time your baby is born - I had around 3oz of colostrum in the freezer! This could then be given to your baby over the first day or so of life, giving a fab immune boost, and you could FF from Day 1 knowing baby would also be getting brilliant benefits from your colostrum. Just a thought. Best of luck with everything.

I will look into it, but lithium is a pretty nasty drug. I have to have regular blood tests to check my kidney, liver and thyroid function as it is quite lethal. So not sure I like the idea. I will investigate though.

thanks for all the suggestions.

New mum, new to this site. On very recent medical advice (from obstetric consultant and consultant psychiatrist in my jointly prepared impeding mum mental health care plan ) you CAN breastfeed if you wish while on lithium. Whether this is of any use to the many ladies who will take lithium in this context is moot, as I'm sure they, like me, will take other medications alongside which you can't breastfeed on or risk infant becoming addicted / pretty damn stoned. There are many other factors to consider: e.g. 1. routine and routine sleep are key management issues for ladies with mental health conditions and bottle may be more suitable on this front 2. if you were to become unwell and need to take short term anti psychotic medication in high doses, you would need to stop breastfeeding immediately, 3. it's not "pass the baby", it's spreading the load and sharing responsibility if that needs to happen.

'lactivists': love it. Breastfeeding mafia kept well away from me. Hear hear for the post on this thread which mentions all those other primary parenters who can't breastfeed for any number of personal or logistic reasons. A personal choice is just that and sometimes choice doesn't even come into it. Respect all round and both ways please, and don't be making someone feel bad whether you mean to or not because they just can't do it, or even if they just don't want to.

bingo - this thread has been nothing but respectful and supportive towards ff and formula feeders, and there have been no posts which have done anything to 'make someone feel bad'* - why bring 'breastfeeding mafia' into it?

*apart from the post that made it sound as though I had said the opposite of what I did say

bingobingobong, did you actually read the OP? OP really wants to BF and would like to try. All posts on here have been nothing but supportive so I'm not sure what you were reading.

Tiktok I think maybe it was the comment: "Should add that ff should be as loving and as bonding as bf and as warm a connection....all the stuff that comes easily with bf can be done with ff, you just have to work at it" Well... do you really? For most people bonding is less a matter of FF versus BF than the effects of sleep deprivation/PTSD/shock/PND etc. And PND can in some cases be exacerbated by BF. I get your point though.

OP, I had to FF almost straight away. It was a bit of a shock the first time but I was far more relaxed the second time. Also the time went quicker so DS seemed like he passed his 'BF period' quite quickly (when they are very little it can seem more natural for them to be at a boob.) Without prejudice (I hope) you may find Fearless Formula Feeder helpful: www.fearlessformulafeeder.com/.

lucy if you get my point, why quibble?

Yes, you do have to work at these things: ff is not normally done skin to skin; grandparents and others are often keen to have 'a turn' at feeding; being responsive and accepting about frequency and amounts is an issue for some people with ff....the decision to bottle feed as if you were breastfeeding is what is sometimes referred to as 'bottle nursing' and you have to do it consciously, whereas it's part of the automatic package with bf.

The fact I did not mention PTSD and other aspects of mental health in that post doesn't mean I disregard them. It was not relevant to the post in which I was supportive to the OP, and tried to address her specific worries related to her sadness about not breastfeeding.

Sheesh.

I am very pro-bf and am also a psychiatrist so I often feel very torn advising women in your situation. I think sometimes male colleagues don't understand how hard it is to lose that opportunity to bf and see it as just a very straightforward decision.
Its not my specialist area and is quite controversial so I won't venture any professional opinion but if you can get advice from a specialist in perinatal psychiatry it is worth doing.
I will just say that many women think that staying off meds and trying to bf is a risk free option but I have seen this go so horribly wrong for some women winding up in them being hospitalised, separated from their baby (mother and baby unit beds are very scarce) and the baby being ff by someone else anyway so I think you are well advised to consider the risks of this course of action.
You might decide to bf on meds but no-one will ever really be able to say 100% whether it is safe because obviously it would be unethical to do any trials in lactating women so it will only ever be quite a small amount of basically anecdotal experience. Most Drs are therefore going to say that ff is the least risky option. Its still your decision in the end but it is a very tough one.
As an aside had you thought of doing an advance directive saying what you would like to happen if you did become unwell eg meds prefs, who you would like to care for baby if you were unable, care at home vs hospital. Its not legally binding and obviously you hope it wouldn't be needed but it is a way of keeping some control.

Thank goodness for sense!

Good stuff, mamadoc - as many posts have acknowledged here, it's the whole picture someone in this situation needs, the impact of the meds on the baby (which does not seem wholly clear and may not be concerning) and the potential impact of not taking them, which actually seems clearer and more concerning, from both the mother and the baby's POV.

Anything that suggests that a bottle fed baby is anything less than equally as loved, as well nurtured and as thoughtfully cared for as a breast fed one is not "supportive"."Breast is best" says it all! My baby, even with the best will in the world and if I got into all the kinds of efforts to mimic the breastfed experience for the mother and baby mentioned here, will never really have those experiences. He'll have something else, and I am not going to get in a knot of sorrow or sense of loss about this or try to ape something I'm not able to do knowing full well that just like the milk I'm feeding my baby, it's a substitute for the real thing. I'm happy, my baby is happy. Do we need anything else? I thoroughly enjoy feeding my baby and he looks pretty pleased too. ANY kind of feeding during this special time of intimacy with a young infant is not that long and it's a time for everyone to treasure and enjoy. Not for feeling like you are making excuses or letting anyone down. I hope that the lady who started this thread is able to enjoy it all too! She has no reason not to.

Can't have been clear in my meaning with first post: hope this gets it across.

Nope, sorry, bingo - when you say "Anything that suggests that a bottle fed baby is anything less than equally as loved, as well nurtured and as thoughtfully cared for as a breast fed one is not "supportive" " you are saying that this thread has not been supportive, and that some people have said that ff babies are less loved etc than bf babies.

No one has said this; no one has been less than supportive.

Yes, you do have to work at these things: ff is not normally done skin to skin; grandparents and others are often keen to have 'a turn' at feeding; being responsive and accepting about frequency and amounts is an issue for some people with ff....the decision to bottle feed as if you were breastfeeding is what is sometimes referred to as 'bottle nursing' and you have to do it consciously, whereas it's part of the automatic package with bf.

Ah, okay, just looked bottle nursing, see where you coming from anyway. But I think it's what the majority of FF mums do anyway - cuddle, gaze into eyes, feed on demand. I don't know ANYONE who props! So I find it hard to believe it's harder with FF, I absolutely disagree with you there! And I think this is what bingo is referring too, it appears that you are suggesting FF mums somehow find it hard to respond to their babies and nurture them. Obviously, nothing could be farther from the truth.

OP, if you choose to FF and bottle nurse I think absolutely you won't find it too much of a faff. It's what I did (mostly) and it was fine. Buying loads of bottle is key. :)

Lucy, I didn't mention bottle propping... where has that come from?

I am not saying ff mothers find it harder to respond to their babies and nurture them.

Read my posts and stop putting words into them.

I am saying that some of the practical, technical elements associated with breastfeeding which encourage closeness, which people like the OP want to do, and are sad about when they think they might not happen, can be replicated with ff, but this has to be done consciously.

Because to bottle feed skin to skin won't happen unless you make your skin available.

Because to bottle feed without paying a lot attention to amounts and frequency may have to be done consciously (see many posts on mumsnet when ff mothers worry a lot about this, even with healthy thriving babies).

Because grandparents and others may have to be told 'no, my baby is not going to be bottle fed by you, just because you want to have 'a turn' every time you see him'.

I did not say any of these things were a faff. I did say they came as a package with bf, because of the way bf is, and mothers have to do them consciously when they ff.

You are being unfair and mystifyingly inventive in your keenness to 'correct' me.

Tiktok, I see what your saying. I think your getting a bit of a hard time here and it was your intention to be helpful.

Op hope you have the answers you need.

Thank you, onion.

I understand that people who use formula may be sensitive to any suggestion that their relationship with their baby is less good - so sensitive that they see suggestions where they just are not there.

:(

Alpine, please give an example of where anyone has done this.

You have form for reading things that are not there. Still waiting for you to acknowledge that you read the exact opposite of what I posted last week!

Hello. Now I have to support Ticktok. I "failed" to establish BF twice. I really wanted to but for very different reasons for each of my babies it didn't work.

Her advice for those of us who want to breast feed using a bottle, for want of a better phrase, is very good and supportive, no radical lactavist agenda at all.

I haven't read all the tread but KellyMom has great advice on how to replicate the closeness of BFing. My big sister is still pissed that I refused to let her feed my son when he was 2 months old. My Dad sulked a little too. Tough. At night if I have to comfort either of my kids they snuggle down on me with their head resting on my chest. No feed possible but I can still comfort them with my body and I do attribute this to trying very hard to do skin to skin when feeding, limited people feeding Etc (DH followed the same rules bless him when he fed the babies and yes, his chest hairs have suffered ).

No lactovist agenda here, just helpful advice that bottle feeding does not mean no warm snuggly time with Mummy.

OP good luck and I hope you keep well. X

Alpine, take your nastiness elsewhere - it's horrible and tiresome to read.

This thread has had these themes:

• here are some ideas to explore with the medical team re. OP's meds, plus links
• OP's mental health is v.important, actually paramount, for her and her baby
• it's understandable to feel sad about not bf, but here's how OP can make ff enjoyable and close for both of them (OP asked specifically about 'bottle nursing')
• personal experience of similar situation - encouraging and supportive

The other theme was one you yourself have brought in - accusing people of vindictiveness and going against medical evidence. I hope the OP will ignore it.

Thanks, Katie.

Why can people not read?

FF is fine.
- Yes, it is.
What? You're saying that FF is poison! How dare you!
- Er, I didn't say that.
Yes, you did! You raving loony lactivist.
- Now hang on a second...
You're saying that FF babies are less loved than BF.
- I never said that, I said that FF is absolutely fine.
Down with you BF judgey twats.

Katie - love this: "I can still comfort them with my body".

Sorry about your dh's once-hairy chest :) :)

Apline id be the first person to get my arse in my hands over that if it was happening, but I really think you have tiktok wrong.

I agree with Lucysnowe that a lot of 'bottle nursing' is what ff mums instinctively do anyway. Some things have to be conscious with ff (skin to skin), but I also agree with Tiktok that lots of things are harder too. Not harder to respond to and nurture the baby, but harder to feed responsively (if that is what you choose to do - and personally I do believe that there are benefits to this, though I respect those with different approaches).

I often think this doesn't start with the mother, but with the cultural pressures that ff mums are often under. You so often hear bf mothers complain on here that relatives and friends, and even partners, challenge them about 'feeding the baby again'. But that aside, most of the bf relationship is hidden. With ff it is all out there. For example, when a friend of mine moved from bf to ff her mother became obsessed with 'having a feed', with incessantly asking how many ounces her DD had taken and how long she had gone between feeds. When she was given ' a turn' she kept jiggling the bottle and encouraging the baby to 'finish the bottle darling', despite being told that she rarely did so. She also started offering unwanted advice on stretching the baby to four hours and how she 'should' be doing that now she was ff. Against all of that, it was very hard for my friend to keep her confidence and stick with feeding her daughter small amounts every couple of hours, as she seemed to want.

I think that there is starting to be greater cultural understanding that the way our mothers were taught to breastfeed often doomed the breastfeeding relationship from the off. I think there is rather less understanding that there is more than one way to choose to ff.

For the OP, there is obviously also the issue of her own mental health. As bingobingo points out, there may be benefits to following a less 'bottle nursing' approach too.