ds 13 days old, not gaining weight, cluster feeding tonight and no milk coming...

[smk84]

Hi (again). DS has been feeding since 420 and I feel completely empty now. He wants to latch on , nothing comes and then he either falls asleep, wakes up shortly after and then wants to go back on again. It is making me very upset as I can't bare the thought of him feeling hungry and not being able to satisfy him. Have been told latch/psn etc all ok. Just phoned del suite for support and MW suggested giving formula. Was very surprised about this. What would you do? He has fed quite well through the night last night and the day today - I know he has had plenty of my milk today. Hoping this is not the beginning of the end of BF :(

If it was me, and it once was! I would think about bottle and then try to get some shut eye. Are you drinking, eating and sleeping enough? I think my suggestion would be, to look after yourself and the rest will take care of itself. Speaking as a person who did mix feeding, the odd bottle won't make a massive difference. Not if you keep offering breast milk. Nettle tea is very good.

Is he upset? If he is not....It sounds like he is having a wee growth spurt and so is demanding more, your body will catch up shortly, in the mean time, keep feeding. Skin to skin, stay in bed.

If baby is happy to keep nursing then let him, if he is waking up because you have put him down in his cot then try keeping him with you, he may sleep better that way.

Have a look at this as these will tell you everything you need to know about bfing and milk supply.

In a nutshell though:-
The more baby nurses the more milk you will make,

the shorter the gaps between the feeds the more milk you will make,

breasts are never 'empty', there is always milk even if it isn't in massive amounts (then breast compressions are your friend if baby is fussing),

the 'emptier' the breast the quicker the milk is made and the fattier it is,

breast milk contains a substance called FIL, the more FIL there is in the breast the less milk made (FIL switches off milk production cells while it is in the milk cell and turns it back on when it leaves when baby drinks).

Surprisingly giving formula isn't going to increase the amount of milk you make, it may temporarily make it look like there is more milk as the gap between feeds is artificially increased leading to engorgement/over fullness. That is an illusion though as behind the scenes the breasts are slowing down on how much milk they make (see point about FIL) rather like a stop-cock valve as otherwise you would have exploding breasts. If you keep leaving long gaps your breasts get the hint and drop back on production which would mean a lot of work to get production back up to speed.

HTH helps and you get some rest with baby.

Sarah you say " Are you drinking, eating and sleeping enough? I think my suggestion would be, to look after yourself and the rest will take care of itself."

This is just not true - drinking, eating and sleeping have very little to do with the mother's milk supply.

It's a big myth.

The only thing that really makes milk is frequent, effective removal of milk from the breasts.

OP, you have some good support here and a good link - I can only think the midwife picked up your distress and wanted to help....your baby sounds normal, and if his health and growth have been normal, there should be no need for you to introduce formula.

Frequent feeds, little naps, empty-feeling breasts....all normal. You are satisfying him, from what you say :)

I was told in cases like this it is your LO's way of putting in their order for tomorrow.... ie keep going with it because it is their way of bumping up the supply, and they do still get what they need! Think you sound like you're doing really well! X

Hang on everyone, the op said in thread title that LO wasn't gaining weight. She didn't mention that then in her post but maybe there's more to this and that's why mw recommended formula?

OP, is there a weight problem or are you just worried there might be because he keeps feeding?

Need more info about 'not gaining weight' and also number of wet/dirty nappies really. Cluster feeding alone does not mean baby not getting enough, cluster feeding is normal.

How many wet nappies since yesterday afternoon?

Good point sioda - OP, we need more info, and you may need RL help.

hi everyone, thanks for your help, he was born 7.12, lost 10.5% after 3 days, went up 90 g on day 5, then on day 12 had lost 40g since day 5. Lots of wet nappies. He is content after most feeds and settles to sleep well between feeds. Last poo last thu which was brown and soft, today he did a yellow skid mark. Specialist feeding midwife and specialist feeding health visitor have advised me to continue to feed frequently - every 2 hours during the day etc. They have not mentioned supplementing and when I asked about pumping they said to concentrate on feeding regularly (which I have been doing from the start), and that pumping would make things too difficult for me, what with feedding so much, but to be honest I would do anything to make sure he gains weight. HV says he is looking well and not concerned about him, but I have been worried about the lack of poo, hoping the skid mark is a good sign (at least it's yellow and not brown). Went to a support group today and they also say latch / psn good. Last night he was frevently trying to get milk, getting frustrated when it wasn't coming (a few hours after starting the nursing session), then falling asleep, waking up, latching on and getting frustrated again. Once he finally fell asleep for a couple of hours he took a good feed from each side and then fed great this am. Feeds during the day/night seem to be fine and I can hear him swallowing several times during a feed. My RHs seems to glug out plenty of milk. This evening he is not getting frustrated, just falling asleep about 5 mins after getting on (he nurses fervently to begin with, then tails of quickly and falls asleep and comes off). Then he wakes up and wants to get back on. He is being weighed again on Fri, and if he has not gained we are going to be referred for tongue tie investigation and make a new plan of attack (which I guess could inviolve supplementing). I really don't want to give formula though, and really don't want to give a bottle as I think doing this was the beginning of the end of BF with DS1. Not sure if I should be doing switch nursing - at the moment when he comes off I am putting him back on the same side in the hope he will get hind milk, until he has been on the same side for roughly 15 mins, then swapping to the other side. Thanks again.

Right, well you say lack of poo but how many poos does he do? It's not uncommon for an EBF baby to go for days without doing a poo. Are you getting plenty of wet nappies as well?

You say he wasn't getting any milk, but I'm confused as to what you mean by this? How can you tell? Frustration at the boob doesn't necessarily mean he's not getting any milk.

Also hind milk is really neither here nor there and something a lot of mums get worried about when there's no need. Milk is milk and unless you're suffering from massive oversupply, hindmilk/foremilk doesn't really matter.

In order to up your supply which is what I'm guessing your LO is doing, I would actually swap to the other boob when he comes off and just keep on going back and forth until he's done. This is the most effective way to up your supply.

Gosh, sorry.....it's still not really clear what's been going on. Still not clear what you have been doing to increase intake and supply; switch nursing, breast compression, very frequent feeding day and night, are the way to go. I agree - switch when he comes off and don't be concerned about 'getting the hindmilk'.

The loss of weight is worrying, but could be poor scales or poor weighing. It's good you are in touch with HCPs. Your baby should be gaining weight now, and it's good to keep an eye on this.

I'd be looking for frequent yellow poo in a baby this young - days between poos is only common in older babies.

It's not uncommon for breasts to feel emptier in the evenings but if you keep switching him you should still get a let down shortly after he latches on the "new" side. Also this will stimulate your supply and in one or two days time your body will adjust and produce more.

I stand corrected by tiktok! :)

I was also wondering about the let down. Some women don't feel it happening but it doesn't mean that it isn't. When my DD was a few weeks old, I didn't feel the let down but I did after about 12 weeks when my supply was upped.

Tiktok I have been feeding on demand and waking 2 hourly day and 3 hourly night. Just learnt about switch nursiing - should I just do it in the evenings or all day? I have tried breast compression but not sure it does anything. continue to try though. The scales the HV used on day 12 looked ancient !
Olympia yes I do get let down after switching sides, but on the last feed he was crying during the let down and pulled off.
Show I mean that I can't feel let down (after the initial one) and that he is not swallowing (I know not feeling let down does not mean no milk, but lack of swallowing does? ). Thanks again. I am determined to get there and all the support on here really encourages me.

Me too! Sorry Tiktok, I know I know nothing about this subject. Very glad that you found this thread and smk84 will get some proper advice! I just didn't want her to go unheard.

OP, do call any of the bf helplines - they will explain how best to help and will help you sort your options.

If you have little confidence in the scales, then it would be good to have your baby weighed again.

Old scales can be ok, but only if they are digital, recently-calibrated, and the baby is weighed naked. If the scale were spring balance then not so good (with the baby suspended in a hammock thing). Also, you need to check the translation from imperial to metric and back.

SJF, stg, ok :)

Tiktok, you don't know it, but you helped me 7 years ago when I was going crazy thinking about what to do next with my baby boy! (change of user name).

OP so you feel let down shortly after you put the baby on the breast and again if you switch him on the other breast. You don't feel any let down and you think the baby is not swallowing if you keep the baby in the same breast for a prolonged period. Have I got it right? If so, it's all perfectly normal!
Keep doing this if you think he needs to get more milk. Your breasts will get the message that they need to "work harder" and they will get more efficient at meeting baby's needs.
However you do say that he pulled away with a subsequent let down so it might be that on that occasion at least he had enough and simply wanted to stay on to be close to his mummy

SJF, :) nice to hear!

No advice but in the same position sort of. Dd2 feeds and feeds to sleep then off and on again but her weight is static after a sharp drop, she gained but now no change week on week, at week 3 she is still 1 oz below birthweight. She also only poos once a week. HV not concerned about anything but has said to consider a comp feed of formulae once/twice a day.

softly, is that the only thing your HV has said?

Nothing about checking your baby is transferring milk effectively? Nothing about boosting intake/supply?

If the only advice an HV has to offer in the situation is 'use formula' then honestly, she is not doing her job well :(

Tiktok that was all, it was today, weighed dd said she was static (scales actually showed 1oz loss I saw), mil instantly said "bottle feed her" I swear those words took 2 seconds, daren't tell my mother or dh yet as they will repeat bottle bottle bottle .

Then I cried, mil left room, HV was lovely said she understood the dedication but that I should consider a comp feed and didn't think it would affect bf. I did this with dd2 and she rejected the breast by 8 weeks so I know it can.

I am going to a bf clinic tomorrow. Re-weigh Monday with HV then said after that I'd consider it :(

here is some guidance on tongue tie, you mentioned tt earlier on.