When do you decide enough is enough and switch to ff?

[melliebobs]

I know there's no real answer but I'm really at the end of my tether. Today dd has been up for a feed at 4am and has pretty much screamed since. I've been putting up with this for 8 weeks now. We're on stuff for reflux but it's not making a dent. So basically I feed her, I change her I try (unsuccessfully) to play with her then try cuddles. All of which she screams through. I try put her down but she won't settle. I then gets to a point where I don't know if she's crying for whatever set her off at 4 this morning or if she's hungry again. Either way 8 weeks of this I feel like the worst mum in the world and that I'm failing her and think it would be better for all of us for me to just go back to work.

Just rung dh in tears and he's strongly suggesting we go to formula. His reasons being dd might actually put some weight on. She was born 7lb15. She's 3 month now n just over 11lb4. He also said he can help out so I can have a break and we'd know how much she's getting so when she's having these screaming fits we can rule out hunger cos well know what shell have had. I'm really reluctant cos selfish as it is I WANT to bf and I've worked so hard the past 3 month at it I'm reluctant to give it up. It's also the one thing I feel I actually can do cos I seem to be failing at everything else.

I'm just going round and round in circles and don't know what to do for the best

Is it definitely reflux? Have you tried raising the head of the cot so she's sleeping at an angle?

If you are stressed she will be picking up on this and will be unsettled. I know it's hard but you need to eat some chocolate cake, have a glass of wine and try and relax.

Babies don't just cry for hunger or for wetness. Sometimes they cry because they are unsettled, unsure, nervous, tired, grumpy or over stimulated.

Have you got a sling? Are you cosleeping? Things like that can make life easier.

There is also no guarantee that switching to formula will stop your baby screaming.

It sounds likes you've had a really hard time.

What makes your DH think that switching to formula would make things any different though? How would you feel if you switched to formula and things weren't any different?

Some of what you describe might not be related to the reflux. I couldn't put DD down at all for around 3 months. not in her bouncy chair, not on her playmat, not for a walk in her pram. Nothing. She needed either me or DH to hold her or be on the breast. I found a sling (I had a Moby wrap) really helped, I think as it sort of kept her upright and also kept her warm and close. It meant I could get things done too. Is that something you could try?

If you think she might be hungry, just try her. That's the good things about BF. No need to mess about making up a bottle you might watse, you can just get your boob out.

FWIW, you're not failing at all. To breastfeed for 8 weeks is wonderful and you've already done so much for your DD by doing that. Babies do cry and some cry more than others. It doesn't help that people do lie about how their babies are, as they want to look like a 'good' parent. Honestly, they really do!

can you get any real life support? Attend a BF support group? Can you get any more help re the reflux?

you could try formula, but get someone else to do it, rather than yourself. not sure if that is best for you, but its what worked for me. gave me a break, and i felt less stressed out afterwards/

You are NOT a failure. not by any measure of that term

You are not a failure at all. Some babies are harder to settle than others. That is in no way a reflection on you.

DS1 was similar - screamed 6 hours continuously every day, threw everything back up, woke up screaming. I b'fed (only time he was quiet), patted, shushed, changed his nappy, tried leaving him to settle for 5 minutes or so. Nothing worked and I was a wreck, it's exhausting and draining.

But it will get better. At 12 weeks, he just suddenly started sleeping 11 hours a night, almost like a flicked light switch. I just think his gut matured a bit and he settled down a bit. But to this day I don't know why or how. He's been a fab sleeper since and is now a happy 4 year old. DS2 is 2 and he has never slept beyond 5.30am (and that is a lie in!), but we never had those frantic early weeks with him.

Is there anyone who can come around and help a bit? Family or friends, even if just to come and pace the floor with your little one whilst you (try!) to rest a bit. You need to rest as much as you can. You are doing great, breastfeeding has a way (in vast majority of cases!) of making enough for what baby needs. You need to be looked after, to enable you to look after your baby. High needs babies are so draining. Formula feeding might not be the answer you're looking for either. Only you can make the decision when is the right time to stop for you.

You've probably tried this, but have you stood next to full on extractor fan whilst your dd is screaming, just rocking gently. Or a hairdryer? My family used to think I was mad, but it was the only way DS1 would go off to sleep. He used to stay awake all day.

Writing this is bringing it all back, it is a phase, it will pass I promise, even if you totally can't see the light at the end of the tunnel right now.

Think dh main reason is he's seen how hard its getting. As calm as i make myself when i do feed her she writhes around, faffs, screams, has a couple of sucks 'falls off' cries and is regularly sick on myself n he just wants me to have a break cos I've tried everything we can think of or been suggested. But like you say I'd be absolutely gutted to give up go onto formula and then her to still be in the same boat.

I've spoken to bfn and they are at a loss cos I've tried everything they could suggest. Feeding upright, against gravity, burping every 5 mins, spending the day in bed, expressing the first ounce the list goes on.

The peadiatrician has given her meds for reflux that don't work (yet?!) and I've cut out dairy from my diet Incase it's a bit of dairy intolerance too. this is poo cos I can't have chocolate, cake, a half decent brew or anything nice for the foreseeable future

I do have a sling that I use which is great. She still screams n throws herself around but at least i cam wash up!!!

Just put her in her bed, (she has a small pillow to keep her a little elevate) cos she's been at it eleven freakin hours n she's still screaming between yawns.

Oh and I'm ready to throttle those that said 12 weeks itl get easier. Cos here we are 12 weeks and 2 days and still in the same boat.

I know every baby is different but these people bloomin promised. Can I sue?????

Have you also cut soy from your diet? My DS was soy and dairy intolerant (they go together very commonly). Going dairy-free made no difference to his reflux, but he was a new baby altogether after 48 hours of giving up both. Definitely worth a try! You have to really check labels though, as soy seems to be in everything.

Oh - and if it is a dairy or soy allergy, formula might be the worst thing to give as it will be made from dairy and quite possible contain soy.

The good news is that since 6 months my DS been fine with dairy in my breast milk and now at 9 months can even eat it himself directly. They grow out of it (usually) quite quickly.

Omg soy as well!!!! I'm going to have to live off fresh air at this rate! Lol did say to dh I'd think about it but did tell him if I've been advised to go dairy free I'd have to get formula from the dr cos the stuff off the shelf will have dairy in it

You can have dark chocolate - no dairy and you need less to get your chocolate hit

Could your DH or someone else give you a break inbetween feeds. So you BF, then someone else takes baby out for a walk so you get your break. Just once a day would probably make the world of difference to you.

The issue here isn't food, it's exhaustion. It's very easy to blame BF and think FF is the magic fix but honestly, do you know that FF would make any difference?

I switched DS from BF to FF at 8 weeks and didn't find it any easier. It made his colic a lot worse and now I had to sterilise and make up bottles too! What I needed was a break, not from the feeding, but from the crying.

You may well have thought of this, but we hadn't and when we tried it it was a revelation: a quiet dark room after about 2 hours awake. DS1 only had a small feed but settled and slept. Made everything else so much easier. She was overstimulated and cranky from it.
I second the suggestion of DH taking her for a walk too, it gives you a break and the fresh air and motion may get her to nod off.

For me the holy grail is mixed feeding. A bottle of formula at dream feedish time seems to be ideal, dh can give it, anecdotally they sleep a bit longer, you could theoretically be in bed from 9-3 uninterrupted.

A lot of people warn against mixed feeding as it may cause supply isssues and nipple confusion. On the other hand you could end up with a bottle refusenik, which is awkward down the line too. You could watch out for signs of dwindling supply and nipple confusion and nip it straight away if that's what you want.

That's one thing I've not tried sinical. Blackout blind is being bought this weekend

Your all right though. Switching to ff isn't necessarily going to be a magic cure. I know that just need to convince dh. And I don't fancy mix feeding. If I'm goin to give formula might as well go whole hog. It's just really tuff and has been for so long that I sat down n thought about the switch n just go round n round in circles creating turmoil for myself.

I also remember the weeks and weeks of constant screaming, and not even being able to put LO down for a moment so I could have a wee or something without the 'tomato-faced-stop-breathing-I'm-crying-so-much' hysterics. What I think I've grown to accept is that some babies are just like that. Yes, some people are lucky but a lot more people than you might expect experience just what you are describing when LO arrives. It's just normal for a lot of them-they just need a lot of comfort. All I can say is there will be an end to it. Yes my ds (22 weeks) is still quite a fusspot, but at least I can actually do things like cook a meal, do some housework, just veg out with a magazine etc for quite a long time before he starts to get cross. What I'm trying to say is there is an end in sight. I know it feels like a million miles away but you will get through it. And if your LO is 'just like that' then switching to ff just won't be the miracle cure. My ds's screaming got worse and worse through the day and I came to realise he was just getting more and more overtired. My saving grace was that whilst he would not go to sleep in any other way during the day, he would in the buggy, so I ended up going for a lot of walks, especially as he would never actually stay asleep longer than about 45 mins so needed about 4 sleeps and therefore 4 walks a day. Anyway, just stick with it- it sounds like you have done so well so far and in just a few weeks time you'll look back and be really proud of yourself for getting through this really difficult time.

If you don't want to go down the mix feeding route with formula you could try expressing a bit. When dd was cluster feeding like mad at 3am I would try and express a feed during the day so that I could at least hand her over to dh for a bit of a feed when I felt I was reaching breaking point in the early hours of the morning. It allowed me a breather and made him feel like he was helping without resorting to formula.

Hi melliebobs, I'm exactly where you are. 11wo, hardly sleeps during the day, screaming (both of us!), throwing up if not upright during the day, can't be put down, and i'm only able to type this because she's actually in her sling for the first time since 6 weeks (she normally objects). The family is out, the neighbours are away, so if she wakes up I won't be able to prepare/eat supper. Again.

I too regularly threaten to throw in the towel and switch to ff; the only thing that stops me is that we at least sleep at night (although she feeds every 1.5/2 hrs) simply because we co-sleep. I couldn't do it if I had to wake properly and get up to feed her. Are you co-sleeping? I guess it might be tricky with the reflux (for some reason, LO doesn't chunder at night, only during the day - perhaps because she's already horizontal when feeding, or because she is on her side, or her reflux isn't that severe? No idea why).

It's rubbish, isn't it. I'm not getting my hopes up for the magic 12 week miracle, just taking it an hour at a time. Hang in there, you are doing a great job and you are not alone!

It could be overtiredness too. The symptoms are eeringly similar to reflux.

Also check for over supply or over active letdown. Again these cause reflux like symptoms. Does baby ever choke and splutter especially at the start? Pull to the end of the nipple? Does your milk shoot out?

Another thing to consider is tongue toe too.

If you're going to cut stuff out of your dirt you need to cut soya, dairy, chocolate, acidic stuff like tomatoes and onions then introduce back in one by one to find a culprit. But rule out other causes first.

Finally if your baby is reacting to dairy, formula will make it worse.

Dd and DS were both like this. Some of it was age (it got better around 4-5 months) and partly reflux, intolerances, tongue tie and over supply of milk (so much so that DD switched to feeding off just one boob overnight no problem )

I do have quite a fast let down but from early on I've always just let the fast flowing stuff drain into a muslin then let her feed. Also tried feeding her against gravity and feeding her upright. Spoke to nct and they were at a loss too. Ah well will persevere I know deep down switching to ff won't change out. Going to pick up with some expressing so dh can give a hand and plod on. It will sort eventually.

Thanks guys. Even though I new the answer anyway it was useful to rant it out

Iggly mentioned tongue tie. This is something worth ruling out.

Useful info here There is a list of tongue tie symptoms further down the page which include reflux and fussing at the breast. Have a look and see if any of the rest of it rings any bells.

We had exactly the same experience with ds1 - complete nightmare nothing worked, then feeding got v painful also at 8 weeks so at 11 weeks we started one bottle of half formula half breastmilk at 6pm then i expressed in the day and breastfed at night. It really helped as we knew how much he was getting, and meant other people could do a feed if needs be - but i still felt I was doing my good mum bit as he always had at least some breastmilk in every feed. We gradually upped the formula element from six months then i carried on night/early morning feeds until 10 months or so.

It is such a hideous experience though I really really feel for you. The only thing I csn say is that it does one day get better - though I wanted to punch everyone who said that to me at the time!

Good luck x

I'd definitely recommend you try cranial osteopathy.

www.cranial.org.uk/page3.html

My 2 dd's were real screamers & I took each of them for treatment when they were about a week old & it made such a difference.

My 2 week old ds however is a different kettle of fish & spends the majority of the day sleeping & much of the night fidgeting!

Oh you poor thing, I have been there and it is absolutely awful.

Definitely do the soy thing - it's quite a limited diet but it could be for a short time and if it works you will thank your lucky stars.

The behaviour you describe at the breast - writhing around, 'falling off' the nipple etc - sounds to me like some sort of feeding issue - and top of the list would probably be tongue tie like previous posters have said. Can she stick her tongue out clear of her lower lip? Can you feel her hard lower gum when she feeds? Is your nipple ever lipstick-shaped when she's finished?

Could also be reflux-related tho. What meds are you using for the reflux? Cos in our case, Gaviscon, Ranitidine and Domperidone were all pretty much useless. When we wheeled out the big guns (e.g., Lansoprazole) DS suddenly became far more settled. IF you're already using that or Omeprazole, then are you giving it on as empty a stomach as possible and then leaving at least 30 minutes before feeding again? If you don't do that it won't be properly absorbed by the body.

Do not listen to the people who say that it's 'because you're tense'. I know they are well-meaning but it is not always the case. Some babies are absolute screamers and would scream the house down even if mothered by the dear departed Mother Teresa.

Don't under estate the impact of a faster flow. That could be your answer. I found the muslin trick was not enough - I had to block feed too (try feeding from one boob only per feed. If you do already, then only feed from one boob two feeds in a row).

Be careful of expressing - it can make things worse until your supply settles down at 12 weeks.

Narmada we were told in hospital she doesn't have tongue tie. And she can stick her tongue out some way.

ATM we are on 3ml ranitidine (started in 0.9ml and worked up) and 1.5ml donprridone a day. Peadiatrician said give it 7-10 days n ring back. So he's due a call on Monday. From what he was saying if this combo doesn't work he's going to try something else. Just frustrating all this trial and error while I watch my girl cry n there being very little I can do for her

I try not to express but have good supply so sometimes got to take an oz or do just to relieve the pressure

mellie if those meds aren't working I'd strongly suggest you speak to a BF counsellor again about over supply. Or better - get a lactation consultant to visit (I found them to be better with DD's problems).

Expressing regularly to relieve pressure will be making it worse, believe me, have been there twice. Try feeding baby from one boob only for two feeds in a row and express a bit of the unused boob but only a small bit. read this to see if it's familiar