weight - again, am I just destined to failure at bf

[Anaiasmum]

apologies for the typos, I'm one handed typing whilst attempting to feed.
DD2 is now nearly 12wks and I've been watching/reading the other weight posts so know I'm not alone and wondering if someone can help.

DD2 was born at 41+5 by elective cs, i was told induction would fail and as DD1 was breech and also elective cs at 38wks cs was the only remaining option suitable for me.

DD2's birthweight was 3.72kg which fell over the following 9 days to 3.29kg triggering phone referral to paeds and a saga of topping up with ebm (for 6 days) and formula (2/3oz in 3 days) and domperidone for the following 10 days. (inc 48hrly weight checks. From about 2wks DD2 continued to follow the 25th centile. However at wk 6 DD2's weight gain began to fall and has culminated today in being told I need to see GP (she now weighs 4.3kg and is on the 9th centile).

I was at the bf support grp this pm which is where she was weighed after voluntarily contacting them as I had started to become concerned at her lack of weight gain, though all other signs are that she is a healthy baby. (urine and poo output are fine imho). All those that see her (inc the feeding co-ordinator who has dished out this advice today) comment on how long she is, but also how alert etc. (I took her to see my colleagues yest (all nurses with DCs) and they also agreed that she was healthy.

I don't know what I'm asking really. I'm falling apart at the seams. We got to this point (only sooner) with DD1 and she eventually was referred to paeds and we were admitted until her weight was back on track (i.e. formula fed) from 12 wks.

I don't know whether to bother fighting my corner with bf. I know I'll really struggle to express and top up (I'm rubbish at expressing) and I have DD1 to consider. I'm already a wreck after this meeting this pm. I expressed some milk a couple of weeks ago as we've a family wedding tomorrow and I didn't want to be feeding during ceremony. (3oz in total after feeds - took me 3 days, as I couldn't do it after each feed!) I don't think supply is a problem, I'm not a leaker (xcpt sometimes from one side at night) but DD2 does seem to feed well, we get sickly burps, I can hear swallowing, so I know the milk is going in.

DH has said he'll take time off work but thinks she needs to be topped up if that's what "they" all say. I fell out with DM who, at 3wks, insisted that my baby was "starving" so I don't have any family support locally who coul take DD1 off my hands.

Sorry for the length, any thoughts?
TIA

:o olimpia. She did ask if I was having milky drinks!
Tbh I'm prepared to ignore her ignorance if it means I'm left alone (even if only for a week).
that I ask for assistance from so called professionals and their only response is to provide formula. I understand that they have a duty of care but if I'd wanted to neglect my baby I'm not sure I'd have put myself through all the stress we had at the beginning.
If my bf baby had gone from 25th to 75th c would I b accused of overfeeding? Ok, rant over.
Sending a big hug to you all for keeping me going with ur messages and advice.

Milky drinks my arse. Yeah, 'cos you need to drink milk in order to make it.

How on earth do cows manage not to produce grass?

you could try breast compressions when feeding? this may help.

is she emptying each breast befor eyou offer other side? what about tongue tie?

Gela, babies don't need to 'empty' the first breast.....even if it was possible, which it isn't :)

Babies get more volume of milk and stimulate the supply more with frequent breast changes ('switch nursing') not by keeping on the same side for as long as poss.

Anaiasmum I hope things continue to get better for you and your little one. When I had (what I thought were) problems BF (turned out to be a simple lack of confidence, remedied by tiktok and many other wonderful women on Mumsnet -thank you :)) my HV said I should eat lots of chocolate in the afternoon so that evening's milk would be sufficiently fatty to help DS sleep through the night... Crazy really, now I'm a bit more clued up on the whole process!

Take care of yourself and your lovely little one :)

I'm going to try and get some RL help from a bf counsellor, (the kind of help that I was hoping for from the "professionals" - latch check etc.) unfortunately we don't have anyone particularly locally, but if I get things checked out, I think I'll feel better. :)

If you've got the funds Anaias, you could pay to see a certified lactation consultant.

Seriously, if your HV is talking about drinking milky drinks, it is really showing up her lack of knowledge.

Hope you get some help.

crikey thanks so much, I looked one up this am, unfortunately they're few and far between up here, but I managed to telephone a consultant who is also qualified in diagnosing tongue tie and from my brief details she thinks that this is quite possibly the problem. I've done some research too since speaking with her and things are clicking into place.
Feel soo much better, I just hope we can get it sorted pronto and, if it's not the problem, at least that's one more avenue explored. :)

Ah well that is good to hear.

If it is a tongue tie, hopefully you can get is snipped quickly. Some find that the snip is not always a 'magic cure' but you're right to eliminate it from your enquiries so to speak.

Anais how is DD's latch? Is she getting a really good deep mouthful of breast? Does she spontaneously come off the breast? Contented after feeds?

It would be helpful to have DD checked for tongue tie?

I sympathise with you as I battled on until 11 weeks BF weight plateau'd for the last 10 days then I gave up. I was extremely exhausted and worried about it all. I wish I had had better support at the time and perhaps I could have turned it around.

fanjolina that's where we're getting to and since I'm spending all of my waking and some of my few sleeping hours worrying about it I feel it's a small price to pay to see someone to get some help.
Unfortunately I'll have to make a 5hr round trip. :(
Business opportunity for when I have a brain and have got through this?

Anais where do you live? Are you anywhere near Oxford?

When I was struggling I spent the day at John Radcliffe hospital breastfeeding clinic and was lucky enough to have Chloe Fisher sit with me and watch me latch.

It is a brilliant resource if you are anywhere within reach.

Unfortunately not, north west england. But thanks for the suggestion.

Can you get someone suitably qualified to come out to you to check for tongue-tie?

Will DD take a bottle at all? After a feed will she take a top up or is she satisfied?

I don't know where I'd start to look for someone. Dd has been to the gp twice and we've seen countless MW s since birth. Hv seems pretty clueless about bf (as evidenced in previous posts). Infant feeding co-ordinator declared my baby active and lively but underweight and watched a feed (made no suggestion s for improvement) but told me to top her up. She really doesn't like me after history with dd1 (I have to say feeling is mutual), so I think her opinion would b that I'm looking for an excuse.
Sometimes dd seems satisfied but latterly I can associate this with days when there's been over supply due to pumping. I know she might b going through a growth spurt about now but he's lack of weight gain is beginning to concern me.
She has refused all attempts with bottle from either me or dh and last night after a day of almost constant at the breast time (productive or not ) we resorted to painstakingly syringe feeding ebm.
The nearest IBCLC to me is about an hour's drive, the one I am due to see on monday can also diagnose tongue tie and divide there and then if necessary (even if it does cost arm and a leg! )
Really wish I didn't have to do it this way but I'm not sure I have much other choice. Feel like I'm 'keeping the wolf from the door' ATM and I know I could just 'give her a bottle' or mix feed, I've been called obsessive about Wanting to continue bf and there's an element of stubbornness in me to make this work but that's my choice surely.

Anaiasmum, I have been watching this thread with great interest as I am in an almost identical position. I certainly sympathise with your 'Keeping the wolf from the door' and stubborn obsessive continuation of BF, I feel the same.

If tongue tie is diagnosed then dividing it will probably help a lot. DD's latch is now brilliant, we are just battling to increase supply and gain weight now.

My DD is now 7 weeks and I'm only just gaining a bit of confidence back since our BF saga began. I managed to exclusively BF my 2 DSs with v little drama so the current problems with DD have come as a complete shock.

Keep up the good work, I'm rooting for you. This thread has helped me a lot, you are not alone.

I'm also in the NW, PM me if you like. You never know, we could be neighbours!

When you say constantly feeding so you mean this literally? Or can you distinguish a feed, then a bit of a break then another feed?

When I was describing this type of situation at 11 weeks the HV's eyes were popping. Even Chloe Fisher's advice was that at 11 weeks feeds could be as short as 5 minutes. My DD was on the breast for an hour plus at a time, but not effectively feeding, as she was not gaining weight. The best feed she ever had was at the JR under supervision where she got a brilliant latch and came off 10 mins later looking content.

TeaandCake it's good to know that you're getting things sorted with your DD. At least you had some experience with which to compare things and you knew that this one was different. Unfortunately, I'm in a near identical position from last time to this, the only difference now is the charts have been modified (DD1 was a 2007 baby) and DD2 started from a higher birthweight so there's been more room for error if you like. I'm now wondering if DD1 had/has the same problem since, if it is TT and this can often be genetic, her speech was delayed (2yo) and we just didn't know. I'm sure the HCPs think I'm just "bad at bf" and TBH I'm wondering the same.

Fanjolina yesterday was pretty much a constant fest. I think we had 3 or four periods of putting her down for maybe 10 mins only to have her wake (if she'd gone to sleep) and yell again. I'm not sure if it was just "one of those days" due to either my complete paranoia or growth spurt since today has been a "good day" - we've had periods of half-decent sleep (albeit in the sling) and sitting with dad for example. There's more milk, more easily available today, (a result of yesterday's feeding and pumping) so feeding hasn't taken as long but I'm fairly sure she's relying on the letdown. She'll have both sides, then come back for more a while later and feeds are pretty frequent. We're starting our journey tomorrow, my DS is nearer the clinic than I, so we'll stay with her overnight. I just hope I've not built my hopes up too much, it's certainly last chance saloon.

One thing I remember being told by Chloe Fisher when at JR was that the let down itself propels milk into the baby's mouth in the first few weeks, so they will get a lot of milk in and gain weight without having a great latch. This was certainly true for us, DD was gaining weight well in first six weeks despite not having a very good latch; I was still in pain and had damaged nipples and thrush as well. I knew the latch wasn't quite right. Chloe said between six and 12 weeks the weight gain will slow off unless the latch is improved and corrected. When I asked her if DD could re-learn she was hopeful but said it would not be easy and might not happen. However I was determined to crack it. At this stage DD had crossed two centiles.

Despite my best efforts between week 11 and 12 to improve the latch a week later she had not gained any weight at all. I couldn't understand it and was devastated. I was worried about brain development and being undernourished so stopped BF that day and switched to formula. DD also had reflux which was contributing to the problem. She was like a new baby (happy, thriving) once I switched to formula which was the worst part of it all for me emotionally.

I was not advised to stop by any HCP, it was my choice entirely. Looking back (five years!) perhaps I could have persevered by continuing BF and topping up with formula. Hard to know. I think the problems started weeks before really and possibly was too late to turn things around.

So, after an exhausting time, dd2 and I saw the ibclc yesterday who diagnosed a 75% really obvious tongue tie. She had it divided there and then. I know we've still got a long road ahead. I'm just so pleased that the reason for her poor gain has been identified and I hope we can now move forward. :)

(I'll b lurking on all the TT threads now for advice)

Brilliant news, anaiasmum that must have been a relief to have found that out. Really hope you go from strength to strength now. You will probably feel the latch improving too and feed times shortening as DD is able to feed more effectively. All the very best to you.

Just catching up on your thread - glad to hear that there has been some progress and that hopefully things will get better.

If you do still want to try and find some RL BFing support you can try contacting your local NCT branch, they often have BFing counsellors who can support parents either over the phone or visiting. The NCT also has a BFing support phone line 0300 330 0771 which is manned 8am - 10pm 7 days a week.
You could also try the La Leche League.

Good Luck.

Thanks pip rabbit. I actually spoke to lll last week, unfortunately our nearest group is over an hour's drive away. There's a nearer nct (25 mins) but I'm not sure they've any bf counsellors. If I get a chance I will call today because I think I could do with some 'hands on' help still.

Just call the breastfeeding line, Anais. NCT breastfeeding counsellors don't work in branches - anyone can speak to them from anywhere. You can't be 100 per cent sure they can see you - that depends on where you and they live and their and your willingness to travel - but you can ask :)