Why not make up formula with BOILING water?

[MixedBerries]

Well, my level of expressing has finally led us to need a formula top up once a day. :(
I've read the manufacture's instructions and looked up the NHS and WHO guidelines (which are different actually) but my question is....
What's wrong with making it up using boiling water? I know it has to be at least 70 degrees to kill bacteria but why not hotter than this? Surely boiling water is more likely to kill the bacteria.
Is it because it destroys nutrients at that temperature? I've googled and searched MN but can't actually find an answer to this. Does anyone know?
As it happens he won't drink it anyway! He looks at me with a disgusted face and spits it out as if he's saying "what's this crap" but we have to persevere as there's no other option!

which formula are you using? I got that with SMA but was fine with aptimel. :)

I'd probably let it go off the boil a bit just so you don't get that cooked milk taste but don't think it would destroy vital nutrients.

We boil the water pour it in the bottles, and then mix in the formula within a few minutes or less depending on how urgently we need the milk (we cool it in a jug of cold water after mixing) This is in a day nursery, and we've not been told this is not appropriate, but if we are doing it wrong we are willing to change it accordingly.

That's interesting, Gin. We're using SMA!
I don't think you're doing it wrong, Cookie. That sounds about right but just wondering why not use freshly boiled water above 70 degrees.

I think it is mimimum 70 degrees, so over OK. :)

Definately try aptimel - even I, as the adult, thought it smelt a 1000x better so didn't blame ds for turning his nose up at the SMA. I was surprised myself as I sort of thought formula was formula. hth.

But why would the guidelines tell you to wait for the kettle to cool for 30 minutes before adding powder and then cool the mixture further to an edible temperature? If it was ok to use boiling water wouldn't they just tell you to use freshly boiled water and then cool it? That just adds even more stress!
Just can't find an actual official answer or one with any scientific evidence to this issue. But thanks, Gin, we'll try a different brand!

The theory AIUI is that boiling water will kill the fancy new prebiotics they put in it.

Thanks Dilys. I think that's probably the case too. Just amazed I can't find anything official about this! The whole country could be doing it wrong as far as we know! (Not likely, but you know what I mean)!

I thought it had something to do with 'scorching' the powder. IME when I've made it with literally just boiled it can go bitty.

Cos it will destroy the proteins in the formula

Some of the vitamins can be de-natured when exposed to high temps (literally broken into pieces) and if you made up all/most bottles like this baby could end with a vit deficiency (in extremis).

You may find the UHT cartons more palatable to your ds so perhaps give one a whirl?

I agree with truth that if you're only giving one feed a day, and if you can afford it, and if your baby is young and/or vulnerable cartons might be a better option. I used them for top ups when DCs were tiny and it diddle life easier and a little bit safer.

The vitamins/proteins will not be denatured by using boiling water. To make milk powder it is heated way behond 100'C, and to make uht even higher temps.

There's prob some stupid health and safety against it, because of you spill freshly boiled water when your filling the bottle someone will try sue the milk company!

I've found that when I use boiling water, the scoop gets sticky from the steam, so the powder sticks to it then the next one isn't a full scoop, this happens every time so you get layers of formula on the scoop. I know it's a tiny amount but the measurements will be out and it dries on so you get sticky powder for the next feed.

Safety is a reason as well - shaking a bottle of freshly made formula with boiling water in it and the lid comes off or some escapes from the teat, you'll scald yourself.

There's also a risk that you might not leave it to cool enough before giving it to the baby - if the kettle is only at 70C, and you've cooled it for a few mins it'll be safer.

You are only going to kill off bacteria which are potential contaminants by using boiling water. Quite a lot can survive at 70deg, but few over 100deg (and not the ones believed to be likely contaminants - there are extremophiles which will happily live at higher, but there not the ones to be concerned about here). That's the underlying reasoning for the WHO advice to boil.

I don't think anyone ever manages to follow that to the letter every feed. And in a country with a safe water supply, even major departures from it are unlikely to cause any problems.

That's interesting CMOTDibbler (love the name by the way!) as it's always cited as the reason not to use boiling water. I'll see if I can find some links where it's quoted. Wonder why then?

I think it's a health and safety thing; if you use what that has just literally come off the boil then it can splutter a bit when you pour.

I think it's the same for not using boiling water to fill hot water bottles.

We all need protected from ourselves.....!

Edith - what you are saying relates to the water though doesn't it - not the powder?

In the UK the water isn't likely to be a problem, whereas the powder can be.

So you boil the water to kill any (unlikely) bug in the water and to get hot water (so not using the hot tap which is really bad).

You ensure the water is 70deg (or a bit over, but not boiling) to kill any contaminates in the powder.

It would be interesting to see some links re the temp for the powder. I always believed you allowed it to cool to around 70deg so that you don't kill the nutrients in the formula, but what CMOT says makes sense too, but 70 deg is the 'food safe' temp so that makes sense. It is also true that if you use hotter water the bottles sometimes seem to be under too much pressure

One thing is for sure - at least 70 deg is better than colder.

OP - have you been on the breastfeeding boards? You will get a lot of help there and may not need to use formula anyway, but if you do, I would try a variety of the ready made cartons until you find one that your DS will tolerate (you may need to try using the same brand for a few days so he gets used to it), then you wont be wasting the huge tubs. If you can afford to use the cartons for the one feed long term it would be better anyway.

It relates to the water in so far as the heat of the water is the only way to kill any bacteria which are in the (non-sterile) powered milk, once they are mixed.

Mixing a contaminated powered with blood heat water is probably the absolute deal way to get those bacteria breeding.

If you have a safe water supply, and given that the chance of contamination is low, then - as many do - depart from the guidelines without running an insane risk.

But if you are concerned about non-sterile power, then making up every feed freshly and by boiling (as per WHO advice) is the only possible approach. And of course that also deals with many water-born contaminants too.

i just leave the kettle for a bit, but to stop the powder sticking i measure it out into a little tub and then pour it from that into the bottle, rather than putting each scoop straight into the bottle, iyswim?

Edith - WHO advice is 70C (which is nearly twice as hot as body temp - 36/37C). Here is the English language version of the WHO's guide to making up powdered infant formula - page 4 says to not use water cooler than 70C and refers to the water as 'boiled' not 'boiling'.

The risk for contamination isn't actually that low this study in Japan found 6.6% of the PIF samples were contaminated with E. Sakazakii.

So it that is true in the UK (and I don't see why it wouldn't similar rates of contamination) and if you used 1 box a week of formula for a year, you would statistically buy 3 boxes in that year that had been contaminated. So not that uncommon really and it would be worth using the safest known method of preparing powdered formula if RTF formula wasn't a viable alternative for what ever reason.

Edith, the WHO advice is NOT to use boiling water, it's to use boiled water that has cooled to 70 degrees. The research does suggest that the contaminants in the powder that pose a risk (salmonella and enterobacter sakazakii) are killed at 70 degrees and yes, boiling the water will will off any bacteria present in the water (not a big issue in the UK anyway) but I'm wondering why not to use water at 100 degrees. Water at 100 degrees would kill of the bacteria also but the guidelines are to wait until the water has cooled to 70 degrees. Why? If, like CMOTD, says- boiling water does not damage or denature the proteins and nutrients- I can't see any reason not to use freshly boiled and uncooled water.

And thanks, ChippingIn, I've had a lot of help from the bf boards. All our problems were due to tongue tie and DS never took to the boob despite having the tt snipped. I've exclusively expressed for 17 weeks but can't keep up the level of expressing required any more (plus I have to take meds that aren't very well researched for bf) so DS is being mixed fed from today and having as much boob milk as I can produce. Not very happy about the whole situation but there we go. I'm slowly coming to terms with mixed feeding despite having had every intention (and expectation) to bf.

Oh, and yes, I think we will use cartons eventually. My rationale behind getting powder was that cartons, once open, have to be used withing 48 hours. They only sell big cartons in our shop so we wouldn't use the whole lot within 48 hours and that would be money down the drain.

As it happens, I'm pouring about 90% of the made up formula down the drain now anyway as DS won't eat it and certainly not within 2 hours of being made up. So maybe cartons would be less of a faff and less wasteful in the long run.

Also, I'm quite happy to use boiled water cooled to 70 degrees to make it up, but, as a scientist, I'm just really curious as to why you can't use boiling water at 100 degrees. Can't find a good reason so far. I understand enzymes are denatured at that temperature but formula doesn't contain enzymes as far as I know. Proteins and vitamin C may also be affected but I can't find any actual research or evidence from a reputable source on this.

try reading this - it is about nutrients and vitamins