New baby question - night feedings... please reassure me it will get better or advise about formula!

[usingapseudonym]

I love breastfeeding or at least I did when I had daughter no 1 and we nursed well over a year.

However daughter no 2 (11 days old) is wonderful during the day - feeds every 2- 3 1/2 hours and sleeps a lot in between (completely unlike no 1 who was active from the word go) but at night... ARG. She wakes every hour to hour and a half. I'm knackered. With no 1 I could of course sleep during the day but with no 2 I have toddler to deal with. I'm exhausted already and husband hasn't gone back to work yet. I'm dreading it.

I'm just about out of zombie mode at some point during the day but I really don't want to spend the next 6-9months in a daze. I know I was very sleep deprived with no1.

I've already started to think about a formula feed at night. I know friends of mine from first time round did this. Bf mainly with a feed at night just to get some sleep.... would it be so bad?!

Or will she settle down in future or are her days and nights muddled?!

Any advice welcome. During the night I am really beginning to resent her waking up and wanting to feed :(

Grrr! I had some friends that swore by giving a nightly bottle before bed. I guess all babies are different so there's no guarantee it would work for me...

Night night all - have a fab Christmas. I might just sleep through it...

It might work - it might not :) Your baby, your rules. You decide what's the right thing for you. Your friends aren't there to make up the bottles, deal with side effects of formula - or to breastfeed your baby, either.

Merry Christmas :)

Happy Christmas all...
Thanks for the reply organic, saw midwife today and she actually suggested a bottle of expressed might be a good idea. I would love dh to quit smoking, he has cut down loads so I think it may be a matter of time before it becomes pointless. When he's back at work I'll get him off to the spare room.
I knew that babies meant you didn't get much sleep, but hadn't expected it to be quite so shattering..I read all sorts of experiences on here, but maybe nothing prepares you for it.
However, the 1 hour feeds at least have put him back up to birth weight, so at least he's ok.
I might be quite snappy tmrw with in laws (we're only going briefly as I said it would be too much...they're very noisy)...i need some kind of badge saying to ignore me / forgive me, I've had 2 hours sleep.
Pseudo, Some other thread said to have a mantra for addled nights...ie this too shall pass.

Baby is now 5 weeks and STILL waking every hour at night and not easily settling. I can't actually cope. I am a zombie and struggling to function during the day.

During the day she is less settled than she was the early weeks too. Very grizzly. I think I have got to the "will do anything" stage. Help?

I couldn't keep up with my baby's constant demands so we switched to FF at 10 days and he started sleeping through 2 days later. He's now 10 weeks old and sleeps 10-12 hours a night :) But all babies are different x

Wow. I keep hearing experiences like that. I'd love a baby that slept even 3 or 4 hours but sleeping through is amazing! It's very tempting I just wish I could know it will work as if I end up having to make bottles all through the night that will be worse! She's lying here just making not asleep noises and has since 1 despite me feeding her til she seems sleepy on and off. :-(

I FF to top up and don't warm the water (i boil some in the morning and store it in a two bottles) so it is not a faff at all. I have a bottle in my bedroom with the water and formula measured out. I just put them together, shake and put it in my now 1 month old's mouth. It is easy. However, i only do it as a last resort.

I'm not saying that FF is best but it certainly doesn't have to be a faff.

I make 3 bottles up at a time. And store them in the fridge. I was brought up that way and it's not a faff then at all. We put our little man down at half 8 last night and he's only just woke up. I hope you find something that works for you xxx

I wouldn't recommend AltShiftDelete's method. The powder must be mixed with hot (above 70C) water to kill off potential pathogens.

Making them with hot water, rapidly cooling and storing in the fridge to reheat later is fine as long as they're there for no more than 24 hours, and I wouldn't personally recommend more than 12.

Alt and liam - so you'd both say that a formula feed at night might help sleep? Or moving completely onto formula feeding?

I'm so tired.

And what figures are there about the pathogens in formula? I would like some concrete research as that is potentially worrisome but since i'm on my 6th year of using it, i'm not unduly worried.

Usingapseudonym, with formula decide what you want to do and whether you're happy to introduce it.

If the answer is yes: prepare it by which ever method you are comfortable with and try a bottle in the evening. This seems to be the most popular time for top ups as you're knackered, you're drained and usually your partner is home to help. I am trying to regulate it and give a bottle about 10pm. Then i know she is full and the feed is quick and we can both get our heads down. Also it means that when she next wakes up my boobs are full.

www.cwt.org.uk/pdfs/infantsmilk_web.pdf

I found this.

It does recommend to boil the water each time but doesn't give any figures on illnesses caused. Interesting reading on the constitution etc of formula.

AltShiftDelete - It's been known since the 1960's that Chronobacter Sakazakii (or Entrobacter Sakazakii depending on source doc - but they are the same bacteria) is in formula powder and unfortunately can kill here.

The last two reported deaths were over Christmas in Missouri, USA (the baby who was reported as 'recovered' died later). Very .

It can cause septicemia, bacterial meningitis, NEC, brain abcesses, etc and the death rate is horrific (50-80% mortality). Not something you want your baby to get if you can avoid it by simply boiling the kettle and using 70C+ water to make feeds or using RTF cartons.

Lots of reports/studies here, here, andhere.

Salmonella is also a risk - here.

I don't care that parents FF instead of BF, I just wish more was known about how to prepare formula in the safest manner. HCPs don't promote it enough quite frankly.

Truth - you're quite right there should be more awareness especially as the outcome can be so tragic. As so many, globally, do not follow the recommendations though, i wonder what the actual risk is. I'm not saying this to be difficult but am genuinely curious.

using - i feel your pain! DD is 15 days old and was awake most of last night, she only slept properly from 11pm - 1am and 6am - 9.30 am, it's not horrific for us as we catch up in the day time (when she will sleep for 4 hours at a time happily) but after 5 weeks of busy days and nights i imagine its very hard work!

how is your DD2 doing now? I've been chatting to my HV today and she said it can take up to 6-8 weeks for their body clock to adjust to night time sleeping so don't abandon all hope yet :)

I don't know if there has been the risk of getting E.Sakazakii has been worked out as :-

a) it is difficult to culture the bacteria from boxes of formula (imagine trying to culture a whole box of formula - that's a lot of petrie dishes). If you only sampled the formula in the box, what's the chance that the bacteria is spread evenly through out the box? You could have a sample that's clear but the box could still have small pockets of contamination.

b) the individual child's constitution, age, etc may well help prevent infection (neonates and prem babies are more susceptible).

c) how are illnesses in babies recorded? HCPs may see a baby with diarrhoea or other illness and not connect this with the formula they are consuming. We already know that FF babies have a higher statistical likelyhood of gastroenteritis, respiratory illnesses and NEC but on an individual case by case basis are HCPs noting method of feeding for each baby they encounter (and if FF how is the feed prepared)?

On a personal note a friend made up her baby's bottles in the morning and would go out with them in the pram basket (no cooler or anything!), her baby could have a drink and then the bottle would go back under the pram, if they needed a drink later the bottle would come out again, the baby had 'toddler diarrhoea' for months but the only advice re. formula was to halve the powder to water ratio (i.e. 6oz to 3 scoops instead of 6:6).

d) There is a hierarchy of safest, safe, not as safe and unsafe methods of preparing formula, this would greatly effect how likely infection is - of the top of my head it is
i) Freshly opened Ready To Feed carton with remainder of feed discarded.
ii) Freshly prepared PIF with 70C+ water, then flash cooled to drinking temp with remainder of feed discarded.
iii) Reheated PIF that was made with 70C+ water, then flash cooled and refrigerated for no longer than 24hrs (shorter storage time is better) remainder discarded.
iv) PIF made with cooled boiled water and drunk immediately, remainder discarded.
v) PIF made with cooled boiled water and stored in fridge.
vi) PIF made with cooled boiled water and stored out of fridge.
vii) PIF made with cooled boiled water, warmed and reheated.
I'm sure you can guess the rest but it storing partially drunk bottles in a pram basket on a hot day isn't going to be in the top 5 safest ways...

If anyone knows if the risks by prep. method has been worked out I'd be really interested.

pseu
it will get better , you know it will.
I totally back up the co-sleeping thing.
I'm now putting DD on one side of me, and holding her to me parallel to my body, latching her on, then dozing. She seems to go in and of sleep and feeding that way.
When I wake up fully, I turn over, plonk her on the other side and start again.
(muslins under her head on both sides, so that if she possetts I don't have to worry!
it has been the lifesaver.
the only time she cries with this method is if i go to the toilet once we're awake.
I have a glass of water by the bed to sip.
It's the only thing that's keeping me going through the day :)

Oooh hello nickel! I'm glad you've got it sorted :)

We do co-sleep but irritatingly she doesn't go to sleep after feeding (no 1 did) or if she does its for about 10mins, then she frets and it all starts again within an hour.

I've also got a lovely oversupply issue so need to be awake enough to put a new terry nappy under a boob each time (I can collect about 1/3 of a glass of milk from the boob I don't feed on. Messy stuff!)

I don't even wait for her to go to sleep I just let her nuzzle and feed.
If she sleeps, great, if she doesn't, then when I wake up I just swap sides...

I see what you mean about your oversupply. I wonder if there's some way of putting a cup or shield onto your spare nipple that could collect it so you don't have to think about it?

like the thing that joins onto the pump
(just floating an idea) - join it directly to a bottle?

here! I found one here!!

me again.
i found another recent thread on oversupply

Breastfeeding is very hard and no one can tell me otherwise. My son is now 13 weeks old, and for the last few weeks we have got into a routine. He sleeps anything from 4 hours to 6 hours now. Last night was 9 hours, but he is not that well at the mo. He always wakes up about 6am and sleeps again for exactly one hour then he's up for two. He goes to bed later too. Another helpful thing was to put him in his cot in his own room. We did this from about 6 weeks old. This means you get better quality sleep, as you won't get disturbed unless necessary, obviously use a monitor. My son is the world's noisiest sleeper and it disturbed us no end in between feeds.
Every baby is different and I am glad that I persevered through the painful nipples, lack of sleep, growth spurts etc. Having said this, don't feel pressured to carry on bf if you really are upset about it all. This won't help either of you. I do enjoy the time I have with my son during breastfeeding, it is my time.
Hopefully, you have got this sussed now as you wrote the post a while ago.
x

Sorry I haven't posted. Tbh if you really want to continue breast feeding don't switch completely. I defiantly found ff helped my baby sleep better but it think it's just because it fills him up. Try your little one with a bottle before bed. It might work to get you a couple more hours sleep. But I wouldn't let it stop you bf. Bf just wasn't for me. It felt like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders when my partner came back from morrisons with some cow and gate! Hope everything is going ok x

Thanks everyone. I had a better night last night in that although she fed lots she did in fact go back to sleep after.

She is noisy - I do wonder if having her in a separate room would help (it seemed to be the turning point with no 1) but she will be going in to share wiht her big sister so I kind of think she needs to be sleeping better first. It's a bit chicken and egg isn't it?

I'll persevere for a bit longer (well today I feel ok as I have had sleep so that's today's plan. Tomorrow might be different!). It would be SO helpful to know why she isn't sleeping well and what makes those that sleep, sleep!