Someone please give me some encouragement

[WethreelittlebabiesOfOrientAre]

Apologies in advance for this desperate long ramble!
dd is 18 weeks old and recently dropped from 9th to 2nd centile. She is exclusively breastfed. She seems happy most of the time, and from end of Nov had slept through 10-10 (yes I know I am lucky!) Over the last week tried putting her to bed earlier and she has been waking in the night, even though still had same amount of feeds during the day. Last night was 2am and 4am!! I just don't know what is different, where I am going wrong.Saw HV today, last week she was not concerned about dd's weight (11lb 5.5oz) but today she said she will ring me tomorrow after I have her weighed when she has her injections at dr. DD was smaller than all the other babies at baby massage class (don't laugh!)even those younger than her. I know all\babies are different and that I am being irrational. Today dd has really fussed and cried when being fed, and at times I have thought I could hear her little tummy rumbling. Last feed, 7pm I breast fed for 20 mins before she got agitated (not 20m continuosly) so thought would give her my last precious expressed 6oz bottle. DH gave it her, didn't wind her properly even though I said she would do a projectile vom, and sure enough she brought the whole lot back. I have managed to express a measly 2oz the rest of the evening, nd am now dreading her waking up. I could have cried when she was sick as it took me a day and a half to express it. My mum means well, but said if I was getting upset and exhausted might I be better giving her some formula and considering stopping breastfeeding? DH has also suggested formula. I am trying to tell them I need support to continue, not "solutions" as they see it. Am also dreading HV tomorrow giving me accusing looks and suggesting same. I can't seem to articulate to other people why I want to breast feed so much, or even to myself. Why am I not satisfying her anymore? I have started taking fenugreek capsules today btw, and my GP is supposedly arranging for a breastfeeding counsellor to see me. Am I not feeding her enough? She feeds 4-6 times a day, usually 4 or 5 on average. I would hate to think she has been hungry.
Anyone that can give me any advice, it will be much appreciated! and please excuse poor grammar/spelling, am knackered but too stressed to sleep

God, must get rid of xmas name!

Bump for you.

I really can't help you, I never breastfed ds at all, but bumping to the top of the list.

I am sure you can do it!

One thing I have heard from other people is that if you are worried about supply, try offering the breast more often? And make sure you are eating and drinking plenty?

but if anyone who does know what they are on about comes and contradicts me, take their advice, not mine

I would make sure you bump this tomorrow when there are loads more people around there are quite a few b-feeding experts on mn so you will get some good support and advice.

Try and get some sleep because being really really stressed and tired wont help anything.

Oh dear - this is not my area at all but I'll have a go as you sound desperate

The erratic sleeping I honestly think is nothing to worry about - just because she did sleep 10-10 doesn't mean she will continue to do so. She could be having a growth spurt, she could be unsettled with teething...who knows with babies ?

I was rubbish at expressing - never did get the hang of it. I gave up because I found it so disheartening. I worried because I could only express a weeny bit that my ds was starving. My HV told me that babies are far more efficient at getting milk out of a boob than a mechanical device!

I was lucky that my Mum was very supportive - but I do know where you're coming from in the "you're stressed, give them a bottle" department - I had that from all other quarters (including dh). In the end, I think you have to have faith in yourself - you've fed her successfully for 18 weeks so it's highly unlikely she's suddenly starving. 4-6 times a day sounds fine to me. I don't know about the centiles stuff - other than it's always seemed to me a stick to beat mothers with - babies aren't average!

Feed as and when she seems to need it. Rest as much as you can. Make sure you're eating and drinking enough. Ultimately - try and do what feels right to you, not what anyone else suggests. If you want to keep breast-feeding then do. Push your GP for the appointment with the breast-feeding counsellor.

I hope that's a bit encouraging. Like I said, realy not my area of expertise But I breast-fed ds1 for 12 months, and ds2 for 8 and I'm very glad I did. Don't let anyone else push you into stopping - it's your decision. Good luck. And go to bed!

Is she producing lots of wet and some dirty nappies?

Please don't worry about expressing - you obviously have enough milk.

I'm tired and not thinking straight enough to post a very detailed response, but please don't worry - DS went from 75th centile to just above 9th in a similar timeframe - he just found his weight, I think. He's a slender toddler now and was breastfed till just before 17m.

She's having a growth spurt, I would say - 17-18 weeks is about the right time for it. Feed her when she wants it, don't listen to stuff re supplementing with formula or giving solids.

If she looks unwell or you're worried about her, then fret. If she is thriving and alert, don't worry.

And you don't have to see your HV. There's no legal requirement to do so, they can't make you. And even if you do see them, you don't have to take their advice, and definitely not without researching it first, if it seems wrong to you.

I seem to have posted rather a lot and am hoping it does actually make sense!

Also, tummies rumble - especially when fed an all-liquid diet.

And she probably didn't bring back the whole 6oz milk - DS used to do the most enormous sicks when he was about this age, but it looks a lot more than it is.

Babies do often start to wake up around this age, btw - but if you're worried about feeding anyway, you'll blame it on that. If you were worrying anyway about your front door being red and not blue, you'd blame that (well, I would!). What I'm trying to say (probably ineptly!) is that you could feed her formula or give her steak and chips (really don't recommend that!) and she may still have a gurgly tummy and wake in the night.

oh threelittlebabies I am sorry to hear this and a bit too tired to post anything too detailed...
my dd1 was (and is) a little one and yes she dropped throgh the centiles. Just remember they are AVERAGES and someone has to be ont he smaller side. dd1 is still weeny - it's just the way she is made. she is also a woderfully happy and perky toddler and I excl bf her for six months.
you are not doing anything wrong, I would stake my rputation that this is just a phase. probably a growth spurt as hunker says. or maybe just something is waking her or upsetting her?
just keep feeding her as often as you can,
you are doing the very best thing for her and you need and deserve support, you will get it here!
keep doing what you're doing. try and rest and get some practical help.
and as hunker says no need to see your hv. I stopped going to the clinic around this time with dd1 and never looked back...

Please stop blamimg yourself and DH. I had similar with DD2. If DD is used to exclusively breastfeeding the bottle may automatically make her sick, expressed or not. I eventually found that the most successful way to give a bottle feed was to leave her in her cot, on her back, and just hold the bottle for her. If she spluttered, I judged if it was serious enough to get her up and burp her, or better to withdraw the bottle and not move her, just let her keep the milk down, even if it was usually just a couple of ounces. Express in 2 oz at a time so you don't have that total despair when you have to throw it away when they reject it. Hang in there, it's not long until you can start weaning and then you can spoonfeed yoghurts, fromage frais etc. to boost the dairy count and start trying to put weight on her like that. It may just be that she is a sicky baby and once the food thickens up a bit she will keep more down. The fact that you are so concerned shows waht a good Mum you are, so sit down, have a cup of tea (or a glass of wine!) and congratulate yourself on your beautiful daughter!

Okay here's my bit -

babies go weird at 16-20 weeks. Honestly, doesn't matter if they are huge or tiny, male or female. Mumsnet archives are full of "what's up with my baby" threads written about this age. I contributed many of them myself. All I can say is that 99.9% get better.

She could have a bug, if she's waking then the grumpiness could just be tiredness, she could be enduring some teeth action. You will never, ever know. But I will tell you this - it probably won't be anything to do with how she is fed, but it is the first thing that people will try to fix.

Stick her on the breast, forget expressing as it seems to be causing rather than reducing stress (and if she went on formula she would still be sick if your dh didn't wind her properly).

Try to get out every day, look after yourself, and stop blaming yourself for every whimper. it's bad enough that everyone else is.

3littlebabies, I know the feeling, poor you. ds is a small 'un, 3rd centile, I struggled with bf at the beginning and had exactly the same as you with dh simply not understanding how very important bf was to me.
It doesn't sound like you're feeding enough, in fact - what's the interval between feeds? Is that 4-6 times in 'the day', or in a 24 hour period? Feeding more often, on demand, will do more for your supply than fenugreek.
Her fussiness could be down to any number of things. And the others are right, their sleep patterns do change, sleeping through isn't somwething which, once 'reached', necessarily stays. ds is coming up to 8mo and has never slept through, still feeds frequently despite weaning. I just think he needs it and knows what he's doing.
It would be a good idea for you to contact a bf support line. list of bf helpline numbers
Good luck.

I really hope you're getting some rest.
I totally agree with bobbybob about all the other things this could be - and jumble - you could start to wean her really soon if YOU feel the time is right. My DS seemed to get really fussy around this time, having been a great feeder until then. I started to wean him at 22 weeks and then BF seemed to get easier again & carried on to 13 months.

Rest, sleep, take lovely baths and EAT!!!
Good luck and keep asking to see the BF counsellor.

littlebabies......I am really sorry to hear your tale, and the lack of support you are getting.

I am not going to say everything is fine and you just have to keep on what you are doing, however. There are issues here which need addressing.

4-6 times a day feeding is rarely enough to keep a good supply going and to feed a baby well. Yes, it may be enough to keep a baby ticking over, and a handful of babies will grow like the Dickens on just this amount, but most won't. Some placid easy going babies will not complain and will just gain weight slowly. There is nothing 'wrong' with them and they are healthy, but they could quite comfortably take more milk if it was available. Some, like yours, even give the signs that all is well by sleeping through.

Just as importantly, long term, 4-6 feeds in 24 hours with a 12 hour gap (from just 12 weeks old) as you had between the last feed of one day and the first one of the next will end up having an impact on supply and it is a testament to the weakness of your HV's support that this has not been explained to you.

Resting and eating will make no difference either way.

Fenugreek - marginal effect if the underlying cause is not addressed, and this is, happily, quite easy to address: simply use your breasts more often. This means doubling - at least - the number of times your baby comes to the breast, or if she is unwilling to do it as often as this (and I do suggest you wake her as well as feeding her when she wakes) , expressing.

It's the frequency with which the milk is removed from the breasts that drives the supply.

The breastfeeding counsellor who comes to see you should confirm all that.

On the info you have given here, I think the situation is purely one of calories not getting into your baby, and the consequent dwindling of supply, which has come to the fore now because your baby needs more milk. This is reversible. Hope this helps.

Shen I say wake her to feed, I mean in the night as well. Long gaps between feeds are not good for the milk supply.

Could you do a babymoon - stay in bed with your little one for 24hrs just bf & resting. breastmilk is a demand & supply process & this would up the demand & therefore supply as well. The amount you express is often less than you produce by bf. Good luck with the counsellor - hope this helps.

My HV told me that the centile charts are based on bottle fed babies who tend to be chunkier. BF babies are usually lower on the centile charts. My ds is 30th centile.

Also I did read somewhere that a sign of being ready for weaning is when they wake up during the night, having previously slept through.

Babies that are 100% bf should be on a breastfed growth chart. The NHS have a a small supply of these in a cobwebby cupboard somewhere and HVs do not seem willing to offer them. Make sure you get your baby on one if she isn't already. I think it is crazy with all the media talk of obesity in children that we are brainwashed into thinking that these growth charts are realistic for bf babies. Rant rave!!!
Keep up the feeding 3babies and get your support here. We are lucky to have TikTok and the rest to help us out eh?

ohhhhh...this myth again!! Do a search on my name and charts in the archives and you will see (one of) my (many) explanations of why the charts in the books are just fine, and it is the interpretation of them that's at fault.

The charts in current UK parent held child health records are not based on formula fed babies. You can read what they are based on because the references are in the book. They are based on several projects which tracked the growth and weight of many babies, and there was no differentiation between methods of feeding. In reality, the (thousands of) babies in the studies will have been formula fed, mix fed, weaned early, breastfed....a whole mixture.

The breastfed from birth charts are controversial. They come from one small study only, and there are plenty of august people and bodies who think they just do not have the robustness to compete with the standard charts.

In fact, it prob doesn't matter, because they differ so little from the standard charts. The main weight and growth diff between breastfeds and formula feds really starts from about six months, and shows up most strongly at about nine months to a year (this is based on what the WHO charts show, not normally in use in the UK anywhere as far as I know). There is a normal slowing of growth at about three months in a breastfed from birth baby, but it's not hugely different from the standard charts.

Threebabies daughter would show up on the breastfed from birth charts as falling down the centiles, too, I am pretty sure.

supermum - this idea that babies ready for solids wake up in the night is as you say in books and elsewhere.

But it would not make any sense to but this baby on anything other than milk.

She is too young for a start, and also, her net intake of calories would be less if she started solids...would not be a good move for a baby whose weight is causing concern.

laundrylover, HVs are reluctant to distribute these charts in many areas because they simply do not have academic credibility. Ask your HV about it - if she is clued up, she will know the issues.

Tilly went on a bf chart at about 6 weeks and as the chart didn't rise so steeply she stayed on a line a bit better as I remember. It was when I saw a different HV by chance that she was changed.
I agree that 3babies little one would still have dropped down and I suppose that really my point is that it is easy to get obsessed by the charts sometimes. As Tilly was my first and very small i got a bit over reliant on them and started adding a bottle at night (wrong I know!!) and feel that with my next I will have more confidence in my ability to bf etc.
Sorry if that doesn't all make sense!

Just read all these wonderful posts full of encouragement and advice- thank you so much! I know that whatever questions I have about pretty much anything, someone on here will know!
Feel much better this am. Went to bed straight after my post. After all my worrying after the huge projectile vom, dd slept and did not feed again from 8pm until 6.30am! Just woke a million times for her dummy. She seems pretty happy playing on her gym atm, won't be so happy in an hour or so when she has her last immunisations, poor thing.

colditz and flutterbee, thanks for responding and "hearing" my despair!

marthamoo, thanks for the advice and support. You reminded me of a lot that I knew was true that has reassured me, but in my panic I had disregarded!(does that make sense?)

hunker- yes she has plenty of wet nappies, although doesn't poo every day. There is no way I will be weaning onto solids yet, I know she isn't ready. Strange, because ds2 was weaned at 16 wks (they were the guidelines then) but he was formula fed, slept through from 8 weeks and weighed about 5lb more than dd does at this age! One extreme to the other, eh? Thanks for mentioning the tummy rumbling on a liquid diet, very reassuring, felt horribly neglectful!BTW, when is baby due? And how sick of being asked are you??!

harpsichordcarrier- lovely support and encouragement, thank you! I am really determined to breastfeed for as long as I can. Agree it may well be a growth spurt but also think I have a lot to take on board from tiktok's post.

jumble, good tips re the bottle, I never thought of that. She definitely prefers the breast, and you can tell because she takes bottles much slower (apart from when dh puts it on the fastest flow! he also then went to bed with a "bad head" and left me to clean up the sick and baby, no wonder I was mad!) Will definitely try and express and freeze smaller amounts as you suggest.

bobbybob- thanks for the reply. I would LOVE to leave the expressing, but have found in the past that not expressing regularly dramatically affects my supply and she is agitated during breast feeds. Also I cannot then leave her for any amount of time, or do anything with ds. Not sure what the answer is there.

FIT- again many thanks for replying. I am definitely going to take on board your suggestions and feed dd more often. Before xmas old HV was concerned with dd's weight and told me to give 5 feeds during the day rather than 4, but I found dd didn 't seem to want the extra feed. Maybe she will start to take more if I offer it now she is bigger?

ediemay- thanks for your supportive post and advice, and for posting at such a late hour! I really do appreciate it.

tiktok, I really appreciate all the info and advice and your post has given me a lot to think about. I feel horribly neglectful to think that I have not been feeding dd enough. i just thought I would know if she was hungry because she would be crying. I hate to think she may have been hungry Will the fenugreek take effect if I nurse more? I think my problem is I pay too much attention to the household chores, will just have to accept living in a tip for now. I will not be swayed into formula feeding, although I dread having to wake her for night feeds, I don't think I should put my inconveniece above her needs. When she is weaned do you think she could go through the night then? Also think I have a problem going out and managing to feed, other people encourage me to express or even formula feed, says more about them doesn't it? I will just have to persist and feed more in public if I have to.

milward and hausfrau- seems like a good idea, but is she a bit old for that? I just mean routine wise, as she is awake for much longer periods during the day, has lots of play and activity and I doubt she would be happy to stay in bed!

supermum44 and laundrylover- I agree re weight charts, and will keep asking my HV until she cracks!

Just want to say thanks again to you all for answering my cry for help at such a late hour! I will do whatever it take to help dd breast feed well and gain weight. Have to take her for immunisations now, but will check back later.

oh my god, epic post! obvoiously had a lot to say

obviously, even

3lb - for some babies, crying is a late sign of needing to be fed. Babies who are placid and easy going may not complain, and some will happily suck on thumbs/dummies and tide themselves over that way. Or they conserve calories by sleeping a lot. I am certain you have not made your baby suffer, and even placid babies will cry when they are in discomfort (except when v. ill and your baby is basically fine).

You say you had a period of feeding just 4 times a day - almost certainly this would have an effect on supply, and just upping it to 5 would not really have made much difference. Offering more really means making a supreme effort to make the breast available whenever she might take it - holding her more so you can spot feeding opportunities, and tuning out people who think you should use a bottle instead of giving her the breast.

I do see this scenario a lot - often when the mum has a lot to do for another child/children. The easy-going baby fits in, and doesn't 'ask' for many feeds. Everyone says what a little treasure they are. But the effect on the milk supply and the baby's growth is not good.

Good luck to you.