Someone please give me some encouragement

[WethreelittlebabiesOfOrientAre]

Apologies in advance for this desperate long ramble!
dd is 18 weeks old and recently dropped from 9th to 2nd centile. She is exclusively breastfed. She seems happy most of the time, and from end of Nov had slept through 10-10 (yes I know I am lucky!) Over the last week tried putting her to bed earlier and she has been waking in the night, even though still had same amount of feeds during the day. Last night was 2am and 4am!! I just don't know what is different, where I am going wrong.Saw HV today, last week she was not concerned about dd's weight (11lb 5.5oz) but today she said she will ring me tomorrow after I have her weighed when she has her injections at dr. DD was smaller than all the other babies at baby massage class (don't laugh!)even those younger than her. I know all\babies are different and that I am being irrational. Today dd has really fussed and cried when being fed, and at times I have thought I could hear her little tummy rumbling. Last feed, 7pm I breast fed for 20 mins before she got agitated (not 20m continuosly) so thought would give her my last precious expressed 6oz bottle. DH gave it her, didn't wind her properly even though I said she would do a projectile vom, and sure enough she brought the whole lot back. I have managed to express a measly 2oz the rest of the evening, nd am now dreading her waking up. I could have cried when she was sick as it took me a day and a half to express it. My mum means well, but said if I was getting upset and exhausted might I be better giving her some formula and considering stopping breastfeeding? DH has also suggested formula. I am trying to tell them I need support to continue, not "solutions" as they see it. Am also dreading HV tomorrow giving me accusing looks and suggesting same. I can't seem to articulate to other people why I want to breast feed so much, or even to myself. Why am I not satisfying her anymore? I have started taking fenugreek capsules today btw, and my GP is supposedly arranging for a breastfeeding counsellor to see me. Am I not feeding her enough? She feeds 4-6 times a day, usually 4 or 5 on average. I would hate to think she has been hungry.
Anyone that can give me any advice, it will be much appreciated! and please excuse poor grammar/spelling, am knackered but too stressed to sleep

ll, you have spotted one of the other very subtle diffs between the standard charts and the bf form birth ones.....the rise is not quite so steep after the first weeks, but honestly, there is hardly anything in it. On the bf from birth charts the initial weight gain tends to be more, but again, not much in it.

Charts are good for tracking the growth of a population, but using them to assess an individual baby needs a lot of skill, and a lot of knowledge about how babies grow and feed. sadly, this is just not taught properly.

ok, been to see HV and have last immunisations (poor dd sobbed for hours afterwards)

Have since been feeding dd every 2 hrs at the latest, or sooner. And holding her a lot. Don't mind doing whatever it takes to improve supply, but it is confusing because it goes against my instinct of sticking to her routine, also if I hold her all the time she will not let me put her down ever?! Anyway.... always something to think/worry about!

tiktok thank you so much for saying I won't have harmed her. Makes me feel much better. I know you can't specify exactly as it varies, but if she is nursing every 2 hrs how long should I expect each feed to last?

Incidentally HVs not worried by weight as she is following same centile(?). She has put on 5.5 ounces in a week, since upped feeds to 5/6 so that gives me confidence. I just have to trust my breasts! (now there's a sentence I never thought I would ever write!) HV also suggested just have a few days of introducing 2 hrly feeds, and not really bother with expressing- opinions anyone please? If she has an expressed bottle how much should be in it?

Sorry for all the Q's, obviously have a lot to learn! Do all feel free to tell me to bog off if it all gets a bit repetitive

expressing is just another job for a busy mummy (says the woman who expresses at work) because baby will stimulate your supply better than the best pump. my dd is on a ' sleep routine' meaning she goes to sleep roughly the same time every day for naps and has a set bath, feed, bed routine. I feed on demand otherwise.

TLB, poor DD - hope she's over her jabs soon. My next is due on Saturday btw - not tired of being asked Eager to meet him or her though!

Do you know what? Lots of what I read in Tiktok's post about a placid baby who doesn't ask to be fed very often rings bells with me and my DS. He very rarely cried during his first year, he's got a lot more "noisy" since he was about 18mo and he realised there are things he can't do that he REALLY wants to (mainly play in the refrigerator, use the PC(!), etc).

He went through a period of feeding only four or five times a day and sleeping through - at about the same time he discovered his fingers to suck - and his weight gain dropped off accordingly, as I say.

I plotted his growth on a bfed from birth chart and he'd dropped through the centiles on that too - they're not vastly different from the red book charts, as Tiktok says. There's ounces in it, not pounds.

DS remained happy, placid, lots of wet and dirty nappies, etc - just didn't gain weight as fast as he had done (he'd put on 10 and 11oz a week to begin with iirc and started to lose an ounce here and there or only gain two or three, then he'd put on six in a week - then I stopped getting him weighed because I was bored of seeing my HV ).

But I do remember he only did this pattern of feeding for a short time - he soon went back to feeding more often. I used to feed him when he mouthed for feeds - he'd get a bit agitated and suck his fingers - I didn't wait for him to cry because he'd gulp when he started feeding then and take in loads of air, then just be sick - waste of everyone's time and washing powder

I went back to work again part time (two days a week) when he was 6mo and used to leave 20oz milk if I was leaving him for 12 hours (plus feed him morning and night and if he woke) and he'd have that over the course of three or four bottles, plus a bit of food. He used to take between 5 and 8 ounces in a bottle - more often 6ish, if that helps at all. I never froze more than 4oz quantities, and more usually 2oz and 3oz bags (I used Lansinoh bags - think they are fab - you can get them in Mothercare and Boots).

What I'm trying to say is that I am sure that DS just found his natural growth line - he now eats like a horse (he's 21mo now).

Can you try using a sling to carry DD in? Unless you already are, that is!

Really not sure if my rambling has helped, but I hope it's a bit reassuring!

Oooh - tiktoks got me a bit worried. My DS only feeds properly about 5 times a day. Sometimes he has a couple of 1 min feeds on top of that. Must feed more and make more milk .

3littlebabies - my DS (5 months) never cries for a feed although he cries for pretty much everything else! The only way I know he wants a feed is to either offer him one, or if he tries to nose dive under my armpit while holding him! I would agree with bobbybobbbbboobob... that 16-20wks is a weird time. My DS went from waking once in the the night to waking every hour. For about 3 or 4 wks. He's now 22wks and has started sleeping through. We just don't know what he's going to do next lol. Judging by the MN archives, it is a weird time and will likely pass. Just feed loads and wait...

hi wee three, i have only read your post, so dont know what advice others have given, so appologies if i repeat them Basically keep feeding, and if poss increase number of feeds or use electric expresssing pump to increase flow, remember its a feedback mechanism, so remember more fedding means more milk. Also i know shes not popular with everyone, but gina ford has a good increase your milk supply schedule, if you can bear it. Try fennel tea and seeds, good for increasing milk and clearing uterus so double whammy. Dates and figs and plenty of water, drink while feeding too. Also relax, stressing interferes with let down reflex. Good luck

suzi - I do't want to make you worried! Some babies, esp as they get a bit older, do reduce their feeds and if they are happy and gaining weight just fiine, there's no problem. Your situiation does not seem to be the same as Wethree's.

Wethree - the fact you say you were using a schedule is relevant. Some placid babies are happy enough to be put on a schedule, and just stop 'asking' or 'cueing' feeds. It can have unwanted effects on the milk supply. I don't know of any schedules, not even GF's, that suggests 4 feeds in 24 hours with a young baby....it just ain't enough, sorry, and that's biology, not any ideological difference between me and the book!

But as I said before, it is reversible, and you've found in just a week of an extra 1-2 feeds a day, your breasts can make more. I agree with your HV - 2 hourly feeds (and don't bother wondering how long they 'should' last - it's not really relevant) without expressing is a good guide. I don't think an extra 1-2 feeds a day is enough to really be sure of building up your supply. You will not need to do the 2-hourly thing for long.
Good luck!

kiskidee- thanks for the response. I think the sleep routine sounds like something to consider when I get into my stride and build up my supply. Incidentally have not been expressing since starting 2 hrly feeds- not much of a let off though yet, as feeding all the time! Bit of a prob what to do on Saturday night as Aunty's 50th, she is DEMANDING our presence and whilst I have a babysitter, I have only 2oz frozen milk to leave for dd.

hunker- what a star you are finding the time and energy to answer my worries right now.When I was as close to my due date as you are now, I just snarled at people!! Your reply and advice were very reassuring and useful, as always, and I do feel better now just knowing that I have taken the action that will help the situation in the end IYSWIM. dd also sucks her fingers and fists(!) a lot lately, a bit like you described your ds. How would the sling help? I definitely could use it more than I am doing now though. Can't wait to hear when baby arrives- I think it's a girl, btw!

suzi2 thanks for your reply. I have been persevering since yesterday afternoon with the 2 hourly feeds, and have already noticed the difference, as in the main she has fed well and not been agitated.

going4potty- thanks for your reply. Will get myself some fennel seeds, dates and figs. Already drinking tons of water, am willing to try anything!

tiktok- you are very good to keep responding to my desperate questions! I feel like the breastfeeding dummy As I said to suzi2, I have seen a difference today in dd's feeds, generally she has been relaxed and feeding until she has had enough, without becoming agitated. However, the last feed before bedtime was not like that, she barely took anything amidst the crying, so who knows how long she will sleep for?
I realised after reading all your superb advice, which makes a lot of sense, that I was thinking my breast milk was rationed in a way, and that by spacing feeds 4 hourly it would have time to "re-fill"! One more question if I may (need an eye rolling emoticon)- you say I will not have to do the 2 hourly feeding for long once my supply is established. If I stop though, surely I would be back to square one? Or did you mean because I will be weaning in a couple of months? It's taking a lot to get my head round this! Also not sure when I would be able to express again if necessary?
Thanks very much in advance!

I always found my supply was really easy to boost with a few extra feeds at weekends. Even one day or night made a big difference the next day. And when your baby is weaned in a couple of months you may find yourself feeding much less often - or not. Babies are v odd.

3lb - no, breastmilk is not rationed It's like the ultimate fast food restaurant - production increases and speeds up to meet customer demand. Go to a burger joint to see how this works. If they have a lot of customers throughout the day, they work quickly to make the burgers needed; if they only get a customer every four hours, production slows to match. If they only get four customers a day, they soon shut up shop!

Feeding every 2 hours will boost your overall supply, and this establishes and ensures continued production. Chances are your baby will not need to feed as often as this for long, and your supply once boosted like this will be maintained even at lesser frequencies.

You can express whenever you want to, as long as you are not doing it instead of feeding, and not doing it in order to leave a later gap between feeds. That's why it is not a good idea to do it now, while you are safeguarding your supply.

I'm so glad I've read this thread... My ds (16wks) is just getting over a cold that's affected his poor tummy for two weeks now, he was quite a wee dot to begin with but following the 9th centile. Not having gained any weight over the last 3 weeks means he's dropped to the 0.4th.

He has also started waking in the night for feeds now he's feeling better.

TicTok's posts have been so enlightening as many people have told me about the breastfed charts, suggesting his fall through the centile lines wouldn't have been so noticable - I now realise this is not the case.

ThreeLittleBabies - the babymoon idea sounds wonderful doesn't it, sometimes I do long lazy mornings with ds feeding from one boob to the other... he doesn't fret that he's not out and about, snoozes on the breast waking to suckle and then drops off to sleep again

I've been so worried that my milk supply just isn't enough... I realise now that his sleeping through from wk 5 hasn't really helped and I'm glad he's waking more now

Have to dash as dd screaming, but just thought of another q- if she is feeding every 2 hrs will she get enough sleep??!!

TIA
The breastfeeding dummy

will reply \to other posts in the am

haven't read all this but i had a large baby (10lb7oz) and wanted to breastfeed exclusively, i came across some health care professionals who practically demanded i offer him bottles as well from the start but i didn't. read somewhere that when your babies demands change try to spend a day in bed or lounging around home with them and feed on demand, this will get up your supply. in the end i exclusively bf about 8 mths. i know especially for women who have other children its not always possible to be at such beck and call and looking back i think i did offer a lot of feeds ...i think if you want to give additional bottles then thats fine, i was advised to give him one last thing at night to help him sleep better, i didn't and he never slept through until 12mths plus! but i also feel that if you want to exclusively bf and you have the time to put into it then thats your choice too

suzi, breasts and babies get more efficient so they feed faster and produce faster so if your child is healthy and thriving i wouldn't worry about the timing/frequency of feeds

3lb - your baby will get the amount of sleep he needs. The true, physiological way to breastfeed, still seen in pre-industrial societies which is the way the human race has lived for 99.999 per cent of its existence, and which we are 'made' for, is to keep your baby with you for most of the day and night. When this happens, babies are observed to feed as often as every 15-30 minutes day and night, helping themselves to small amounts with the mother barely noticing when it happens. Babies still sleep as much as they need. They may have longer sleeps from time to time. It's not a big deal. It sorts itself out.

Human beings are adapatble, even so, and babies can thrive perfectly well without this pre-industrial feediing style, so while we can learn from it, we don't have to follow it in the 21st century.

Hope this helps you understand a bit more.

I suspect you have been reading books which actually don't have a basic understanding of how bf works, or listening to people who don't - the idea that breasts need time to refill and that 4 hours is better than 2 must have come from there, I think

i know this isn't really what you want to hear..but if you do decide to offer a bottle of formula, it is possible to continue breastfeeding aswell and combine the two. i know from first hand experience, ive combine fed,and exclusively breastfed my babies, believe you me, by the time they are at school they'll be in the biscuit tin and it won't make any difference what you did!

Aloha- lol at " babies are v odd"!!! Very true

Cabe, thanks for the support. dd has had regular colds since she was born! Poor thing. I didn't even consider that they may be affecting her feeding pattern . Good luck with your feeding- I think we are on the Sept'05 thread together too

jinglybits (love the name)- the feeding has been going better. Dd went to bed at 10pm but woke at 12.20am and after a feed concked out- she never does that, literally everything wakes her. Fed again early morning so going well. Thanks for the response.

tiktok- Thanks again for replying.
You wrote:
Feeding every 2 hours will boost your overall supply, and this establishes and ensures continued production. Chances are your baby will not need to feed as often as this for long, and your supply once boosted like this will be maintained even at lesser frequencies.

Wow! Breastfeeding is amazing. I can't begin to understand how this works, but am hoping it is true for me soon.

Re reading books, you could be right. I think most of the health care professionals I have encountered have instilled the opinion to feed breast fed babies every 3/4 hours, as with bottle fed. It's sad that they are so uninformed. My mum works at the hospital where I had dd and got me the name of their bf expert, a midwife, but I see no benefit in asking LOTS of people the same question as will prob get conflicting answers. I am happy doing what you have suggested, but must stop saying "Well tiktok says...." when boring people rigid on the subject, they will think I am mad!

Thanks bubblepop. As I said in an earlier post, I can't explain adequately to people why it is so important to me, they just think well if baby is hungry give a bottle! Hopefully I can continue, but if things did deteriorate for whatever reason I would also be happy to formula feed, as had to do so with ds2.

Yes! we're on the Sept '05 thread together... I used to be so proud of how abundant my milk was in the early days... never ever thought ds's long sleeps could affect my ability to continue feeding. As I said, I'm so glad I've stumbled across your thread as it's answered doubts and worries and really helped

Hmm....these long....long....sleepers can create problems! It's not a good thing, on the whole, for a young baby to sleep for many hours, at least not as a regular thing.

Some babies conserve calories that way, and they don't wake up and 'ask' for feeds because they don't want to expend the energy. This is prob more likely to happen with babies who are very small, poorly, naturally placid, babies who have been put on a rigid schedule and who have given up asking, or maybe a mix of all of that.

Nature expects mothers to have their babies close to them, bodily, so they know as soon as the baby twitches a bit that a feed is wanted. But we tend not to do that. Babies tend to sleep cosied up in cribs, and if they twitch a bit, no one really notices, and they may just go back to sleep again. A lot of babies are fine with this, and will certainly not tolerate missing out of feeds. But some are not, and just sleep.

I get very worried about the 'good' babies who are going through the night at 2 weeks. Some are just fine. Most are not.

Tiktok - I'm pretty sure it's the placid baby scenario with my ds, I've never expected him to stick to a schedule...
He's had a cold and this seems to have made him very loose - dirty nappies throughout the day and this has hindered his growth too, we've spent all day today doing feeds at least every two hours to stimulate more milk for him.

He's feeling better in himself now I think and wakes at least twice in the night

I have taken him to the doctor about his tummy but he felt there was no serious problem other than the cold virus and mucus upsetting his digestion... If I don't see an improvement when I weigh him next at bumps and babies I'll have to book another appt.

Thanks for your advice and insights x

Cabe- I'm ridiculously pleased that my thread has also helped you! I too lament the days of the spurting milk because it reassured me that I had loads. Used to wear those breast shells and collected LOADS all the time.

tiktok- thanks a million for all the advice, I also really appreciate it. Noticed on another thread you posted that BF babies should have several yelow poo nappies a day...dd has not poo'd this week (think about 5/6 days) yet I am feeding every 1/2 hrs since wed. Should I be worried? Go on... give me something else to worry about, seems I'm not happy unless I'm worrying