Health visitor rang today...

[TimeWasting]

She was really surprised we were still exclusively breastfeeding at 7 weeks.
Pleased sounding, but clearly shocked.

I'm beginning to think she didn't worry about DD weight gain as this would clearly pick up when I put her on the bottle.
Maybe she'll start harassing me now.

Weirdly she remembered exactly how long DH had been working away when I saw her couple weeks ago, but has forgotten that DS was bf and never had a bottle.
People are funny.

I only found breast feeding painful when I got mastitis. In fact I was worried I was doing it wrong at first because everyone told me how much it hurt and it didn't! I was given lots of pots of cream for cracked nipples and none of them were opened. I'm mix feeding my 10 month old and people always seem shocked and seem to suggest that it's time I stopped.

(OK so I was wrong about breastfeeding hurting- apparently she has a 60% tongue tie - just been diagnosed today - which was probably the reason for the pain and discomfort)

wavey - hope this gets fixed.

You see, you are a shining example of why it is wrong to promote the idea that 'everyone experiences pain' and that it is an inevitable part of bf.

I have shared the stats here - good, solid research that demonstrates that while it is a large no. of women who experience pain, it is far from the majority. I got told by zimm that she finds 'NHS surveys' (which it was not) 'flawed' (before she even looked at the link to see where it was from). She later conceded - a bit :)

It seems to me that some people are keen to hang on to the idea that pain is normal and that mothers should be warned that it will happen. I don't know what the attraction of this idea is, except perhaps it validates some people's own experience.

But if women think it is 'normal' to experience pain, they don't expect anyone to help. Some women don't even ask for help. Some women, like you, ask, but understandably stop asking when unhelpful people-supposed-to-be-in-the-know tell them 'everything looks fine' and mumble something about persevering and lots of mothers having it.

Soreness is not normal. If amends to positioning and attachment don't resolve it quickly (and I mean quickly - the mother should feel the difference immediately even if she does not become 100 per cent pain free straight away), then start exploring other reasons, inc TT.

There should be massively more help for bf pain - it is hugely important, because it is one of the main reasons why people stop bf before they planned to, and it must be at least partly why some women are scared to even try bf.

But 'help' for pain does not consist of telling women they have to put up with it, because 'everyone' experiences it no matter what they do.

And that is an 'old chestnut' which does a lot of damage.

hear hear.

Thanks Tiktok (and sorry for the slight hijack) but it was soooo bloody frustrating having been told again and again that my latch was fine but just try this etc...

I asked time and time again if it was tongue tie, and was told no - but noone has looked in her mouth since day 2!! (When I said it didn't feel right and please could someone check for tongue tie - and asked visiting midwives when home as well - they visited almost daily as we had problems establishing feeding)

Breastfeeding counsellors watched feed after fucking feed and heard the bloody clicking and told me some babies just do that, and it was probably high palate....

When I think how stressed we both used to get feeding - and she started refusing feeds - then you told me I should not offer or get stressed so much etc. In the end you just tell people what they want to hear - "yes it's much better now thanks for your help" when it bloody isn't.

Gah!

I've even name changed several times just because I was so embarassed at asking the same questions over and over again in here....

I took DD to be weighed recently (18 weeks) and was accused of giving her solids by the health visitor. I suppose it is surprising for a EBF baby to go from the 25th to the 91st centile, to be fair.

Oh FFS - high palate and TT are inter-related. You are very likely to have one if you have the other.

When you say BF counsellor - where were they from? Tiktok will know far better than me but from what I understand even fully qualified (ie NCT/ABM/LLL etc) BFC may not be able to recognise TT as the training for TT is pretty specialist. But I might well be wrong there. I've certainly not come across it yet in the ABM training but there's a long way to go for me!! Saying that, all the BFC I know have been able to recognise it... so I don't know...

My personal problem was not seeing a BFC. I saw midwives and peer supporters, and even a specialist nurse AND I asked if it was TT but they all said no. Peer supporters, I know now, are NOT in a position to say no... but should point me in the direction of someone who knows :(

wavey I may well have suggested to a stressed mother with a fighty stressed baby who kept refusing and struggling not to keep on offering feeds (would not have told you not to be stressed, I don't think :) ) - but I would not have thought of tongue tie immediately, to be honest with you, because by the time you were asking this (I think your baby would be about four months?) one assumes (wrongly as it turns out) that this would have been checked out. Not your fault you did try to check it out and found everyone saying 'it's fine' :( :(

Also, I don't think breastfeeding counsellors are skilled at spotting those posterior tongue ties, and nor are HVs. But they should (bfcs and HVs) point a mother in the direction of someone who can diagnose.

Clicking is not a problem in itself. Babies do sometimes click - but it is significant if the mother is sore, if feeding is miserable, if the baby is not gaining etc etc.

I think you have been unlucky in not having people around you who really took what you were saying about soreness and the experience of feeding seriously.

They were at the local breastfeedinfg support group - saw about 3 - they go round all the local groups and I asked each in turn... in the end it was a peer supporter who gave me a phone number - more to shut me up from going on about it I think!

organic, you are right that training in TT spotting is not part of a bfc course - this may change, and some bfcs are getting trained and some have been trained in snipping ties.

I can look in a baby's mouth and I can spot obvious ties - those front ones where the tip of the tongue is heart-shaped. But I would not be confident in saying to a mother who experienced pain despite positioning and attachment amends that her baby is not tongue tied...and it irritates me a lot when I hear of peer supporters or indeed anyone else telling mothers their baby does not have a TT.

Volunteer breastfeeding counsellors can't be expected to diagnose oral anomalies like this - or be criticised when they 'miss' them. But they should not say 'your baby is not tongue tied' 'cos they cannot really know!

I can't remember your exact words TBH, and I'm sorry if I'm having a rant at people who don't deserve it.

Sorry

"But I would not be confident in saying to a mother who experienced pain despite positioning and attachment amends that her baby is not tongue tied"

That's the point, isn't it. Doesn't matter what you do or don't know, it's knowing what you don't know and what to do about it that is critical.

You weren't ranting, wavey :)

Hope you get it fixed and that it allows you to have comfortable enjoyable feeds.

Yes, organic - bfc training calls it 'boundaries' :)

If I see something that looks to me like a TT (and mum is having difficulties) or mum is having the kind of difficulties that a TT could cause then I just say that I have seen signs that indicate it would be a good idea to have a TT assessment by a trained MW who would be able to correctly assess baby and that I am NOT qualified to assess baby's mouth nor am I saying baby definitely has a TT.

I have seen a mum with the sort of issues that accompany TT and baby had a small piece of tight tissue under their tongue along side a high/narrow palate. The HV & MW pooh poohed it as baby could stick their tongue out and I had to stand my ground and explain in no uncertain terms why I thought an assessment would be a good idea (not least for mum's peace of mind). I don't know the outcome but what good does it do to with-hold specialist assessment when there are issues with bfing (and the mum wants to continue)?

Quite :)

In my personal and therefore clearly limited experience I have felt that people haven't wanted to admit when they were at their limits.

Tiktok I just wrote another response but I think actually I'd rather agree to disagree because I like and respect you and would prefer not to fall out. I have strong personal feelings around NCT antenatal classes and breastfeeding and I am still very angry at how the information I was given contributed to my daughter losing too much weight and being readmitted. My teacher was clearly much less well informed than you and I 'm prepared to accept that some classes are better than others. Do you think you will share the feedback from this thread with the NCT?

I still don't like surveys as evidence though - worked in statistics too log!

And I certainly don't want to fall out with organiccarrotcake - sometimes she sticks up for me

It's ok, zimm, I haven't fallen out with you :)

BTW, NCT has started a new form of evaluation, with parents being asked the same questions to be consistent, and individual NCT teachers and bfcs will get their feedback via a central point (this allows better monitoring of parent satisfaction).

I resist the idea that an antenatal class taken in pregnancy can be even partially responsible for a baby's hospitalisation - that is always a really bad thing to happen, but if we are looking to place blame, my vote is for the HCPs whose job it is postnatally to ensure a mother is feeding effectively and knows how to spot it if she isn't.

Incidently we were told to do our evaluations by a certain date - before most of ius had had our babies, so we had no idea....

There's a debate about whether you should evaluate the effectiveness of any session before or after the birth, though, wavey. One of the aims of a session (on bf or birth) is to increase confidence and feelings of preparedness. It's not just 'to have a better bf experience afterwards' which of course can only be assessed postnatally.

The other thing is that it seems hard on any bfc or antenatal teacher to be evaluated in a fairly detailed way on her session two or three months afterwards when memories are no longer fresh. I mean, class members are not being asked just 'was this session any good?' but checking on whether the bfc/teacher included particular items of information.

I am not sure what my view is, to be honest. There are arguments for and against evaluating before or after the birth.

Maybe both?

Maybe this will happen....but again, you have to be conscious of not hassling people to fill in forms, and asking them to do it twice might be resented.

I'm not falling out with anyone either

Zimm Forgive me for asking stuff I should know but can you tell me (if you don't mind sharing, and obv I understand if you don't) what you felt you were told antenatally that led to your daughter being admitted with weight loss? (I'm not looking to justify anything and I have no agenda other than a real interest in knowing when one thing leads to another, or is felt to lead to another, whether the original thing can be changed for future teaching).