Manchester Maternity Unit to no longer supply free formula

[BoastingByStealth]

menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1459696_st-marys-hospital-bans-free-formula-milk-to-make-mums-breastfeed-instead

Does anybody disagree with this new policy?

Apologies if this has been done before, I'm just in the middle of a debate about it, and wanted to canvas opinion.

we know that formula feeding leads to worse health outcomes. On an individual level we haven't got a clue what the effect might be

But it doesn't always does it? Not all babies who are ff suffer from the risks of ff. The only one which has the some of the issues traditionally associated with ff was the one I bf for longest. And I realise it's not just about eczema and asthma etc, just stating my personal experience.

Saying that ff carries risks is one thing - an entirely acceptable statement.

Saying that by ff you are damaging your dcs health as a statement of fact is not.

But organic - that is exactly the problem. It's supposed to be a two part scheme, but in reality for a hospital it's much easier to issue a press release "we will not provide formula so more people will BF" than to implement a decent system of BF supporters.

Perhaps my "stick to beat women with" was overly dramatic: but I do get angry when I see these headlines because they cloud the main issue, which is that BF is not supported enough in hospitals. Banning bleeding formula is never going to work by itself - and may make things even harder for those women who are already trying but are struggling (as per examples in this thread).

Headlines we should be seeing are: "Hospital XYZ's excellent BF consultants and volunteers help raise BF rates by 15% YoY".

I've never said that providing my own formula would have made me feel better or worse. I've never taken formula to hospital. Nor have I needed it. And as I've now said at least three times, I think that you should take your own formula in.

The emotional aspect of this is not what the op was asking. It was being told that despite trying, ff my babies was damaging them.

I'm not posting on here anymore though.

Being told that ff is bad, damaging etc but that it's ok for you because you couldn't manage to bf is not what I need right now. I'm sure it's not what's intended but it's what's coming across.

Especially as ff is not working out brilliantly either. DS won't take his reflux meds and has just been prescribed nutramigen too.

So from my experience - just don't bother feeding your kids at all. It's a raw deal whatever you do!

Actually they do suffer from the risks. That is fact. Whether they suffer from the outcome of those risks is a different matter. Likewise some smokers live to be 100yrs! They are at higher risk of health issues but by no means guaranteed them.

I think what TikTok is trying to say is that the risk statements etc are not personal. They are statistical. And it would be irresponsible to never mention them because some mothers feel guilt. If a mother is feeling guilt then she needs support to talk through her choices. Very, very few people are out to criticise individual mothers because their reasons for FF are so varied, personal and emotive. But the stats are just that.

lovingthecoast in answer to your question re why so many of us failed, I guess partly expectations, and partly (the bigger part I think) support, and continuity of care. There was one midwife I encountered in hospital who manhandled me and DD (in a good way!) and that was the only time DD fed. The others ranged from standing at the door saying 'looks fine to me' to I'll just pop and get you a leaflet' to 'just keep offering the breast'. Midwives are not all BF/lactation experts. Only one on our ward really did the trick, and the next time I needed her, she was delivering a baby. Once we had left hospital, they were even more hands off.

And re your question to button at 13.40, I think it's just because it's just one more inference that you're doing it wrong, no we don't have formula because you're supposed to be BFing. It is emotive, I wish it wasn't, but it is.

Stepping away now because like button I'm not over it really either.

D

Sorry - just wanted to say that's what I meant - outcomes not risks. Am really going now. Just didn't want you all thinking I was thick as well as irresponsible

Im sorry, Buttonmoon, you are obviously in need of support right now. Please be assured that nobody on here was criticising you.

I was confused because the OP was talking about one issue and suddenly it became about making FF mums feel bad. Im not sure where or if that actually happened. I didn't see this as a BF Vs FF thread at all.

But the facts and stats are what they are. We cannot pretend they don't exist. Mothers need support but it's not supportive to lie.

Fair enough. But you see I don't see it as infering anything. I just see it as the hospital no longer funding something that parents have a responsibility to fund themselves. Really nothing about the BF Vs FF debate.

buttonmoon, you feel hurt and angry.

But I am not responsible for the way you feel.

You quote me as saying, "we know that formula feeding leads to worse health outcomes. On an individual level we haven't got a clue what the effect might be"

and I don't know if it is deliberate or not, but you omitted my words 'on a public health level' from the start of that sentence, which was the very phrase that lent sense to the rest of it.

You then go on to say "Saying that ff carries risks is one thing - an entirely acceptable statement." But you objected to that before! You turned the notion that formula has risks into a personal criticism of yourself....and then you go on to invent a phrase which no one has said here as if you are quoting someone directly, by stating, as you then did,

"Saying that by ff you are damaging your dcs health as a statement of fact is not".

No one said that.

It's not fair to say they did, and whether you are upset or hurting or not, it is still not fair :(

I cannot believe someone would be so callous as to "dish out the stats" to a mother who is struggling to breastfeed. What would be the point exactly? A mother who is desperately trying to BF obviously knows that breast is best: that is why she is trying to BF in the first place. That's not the support that is so desperately needed and sadly lacking in most hospitals...

I don't see anything wrong in ending the provision of free formula other than for emergencies - it is already the norm in many areas of the country anyway.

I do not agree with lovingthecoast that every woman should be expected to go into hospital with some formula just in case though. If you have had one baby and feeding hasn't gone to plan then, I guess, for subsequent babies, you would be a little foolish not to plan ahead just in case bf-ing went wrong again. However, for first babies, I don't think you necessarily are prepared for not being able to do it. Certainly, my impression before DD was born was that BF or FF were a choice and if you wanted to BF and were prepared to persevere, you would be able to do it. Because I fully intended to BF and was a bit superstitious about buying things for the baby before she was born so I only bought the absolute essentials, I bought no bottles, formula or steriliser.

When everything went tits up in hospital and DD, despite appearances, was getting nothing at all from me and was severely dehydrated, and the hospital insisted on formula feeding, DH was sent out to the supermarket next door to buy supplies. Whilst DH was gone, the nurse, after speaking to other people, did manage to find a bottle of ready made stuff to get DD going as quickly as possible (the most poignant experience in my life to that point was seeing her satisfied little face, almost drunken really, after she had some formula - possibly the first proper sustenance she had had since birth. Then I really felt like I had failed her). Had DH not been with me and able to dash out to the shop, the hospital would have had to have provided me with far more formula than they did.

I realise now how naive I was expecting that, as BF is natural, I would be able to do it, but I am fairly sure I was not the first, nor will I be the last person to be so naive. So for that reason, I think hospitals will always have to keep supplies for such situations, particularly for first timers who are a bit clueless not sufficiently prepared, like me.

Oranges, your post doesn't make sense to me. Firstly, you say that you disagree that first time mothers wishing to BF should bring formula just in case. Then you go on to say that BF didn't work out for you and you needed formula! Surely that shows you that first time mothers should be prepared for every eventuality?

I also saw BF as natural and very much wanted to do it. But I also brought formula because life, especially childbirth, isn't always as rosy as one might think. I was lucky enough that BF went well even though it hurt like hell, DS screamed the house down and I felt like my nipples were going to fall off. But I knew that if it hadn't have gone well, I had the formula to fall back on. You say you were superstitious and only bought the minimum. Surely milk counts as part of that along with a babygro and car seat?

Oranges I really am stepping away from this thread, but ditto your experience and then especially the moment with the satisfied drunken face on first actual sustenance. This is what DH is more angry about looking back, that it took a week for us to have the guts to admit defeat and try formula.

D

"But organic - that is exactly the problem. It's supposed to be a two part scheme, but in reality for a hospital it's much easier to issue a press release "we will not provide formula so more people will BF" than to implement a decent system of BF supporters."

Don't I bloody know it :(

Saying that, though, do bear in mind that what the headline says is almost certainly not what the hospital is doing (on the basis that headlines are usually wrong ) So it may well be the case that the hospital is working on BFing support by training of MWs, provision of peer supporters on the ward, etc etc. That IS the case in my regional hospital and mine is certainly not alone.

Of course, the overall support is utterly appalling.

And while we're speaking our minds here, to mention the "BF - N" phrase (whether to call someone it or not) anywhere, at any time, is enough to encourage those of us who willingly give up (a lot) of their time to try to support women and babies, in the face of virtually no financial support from the NHS, and against the millions and millions of pounds of advertising from formula companies, to pack up and bugger off home to enjoy more of our own children. Frankly.

Fortunately, we shake our shoulders, move on and look to help the next person.

deliaskis but who is your DH angry WITH exactly?

Good question, mainly not at anyone but angry that we didn't feed our DD for a week.

But I suppose to some extent angry that the teams of HCPs who we encountered during that week refused to even discuss whether perservering with BF was the right thing or whether it was time to try some formula. We had really very little confidence and no reassurance to be able to make that decision ourselves, which meant we followed the advice of the HCPs, which was to just keep trying BF, but as I said upthread, very little actual support was available so we all just got more and more stressed, and DD got smaller and smaller and weaker and more and more sleepy meaning she was even less likely to be able to get what she needed.

We were so sure we were trying to do the right thing, and everybody kept telling us that we were, that it was like we felt we needed to be given 'permission' to give a bottle from someone who you know...knew more about this than us.

As you said above, there needs (from my experience) to be a bit more of a balanced approach bearing in mind the risks of NOT formula feeding when it is actually needed, i.e. risks of baby not thriving/surviving if BF is not working. There was no 'big picture'. Nobody spotted the signs that I now see in hindsight were big flashing lights that should have alerted midwives to things not being right (not just weight going down and down), nobody asked the right questions, nobody probed for the right information, and nobody actually helped. So yes, we're both a bit angry about that.

And proper respect to you BTW for the support you provide, it's just that aren't enough of you to go around.

D

delia :( That makes sense (being angry about that). Perhaps not at the individual MWs who will be trying their best, mostly, but at the system. And the fact that the BFing support budget is sooooo tiny :(

I have had 3dds and hospital has provided formula for all 3. The youngest is almost 8 months and I double checked if I needed to supply it, they said no. I was told because I asked why - that the baby was the hospitals patient and therefore the hospital would supply the formula. Am in NI.

lovingthecoast - perhaps I phrased my post badly. I didn't mean that women shouldn't bring formula to hospital just in case BF-ing goes wrong. What I meant really was that it is unrealistic to expect that all women will take formula into hospital for this reason. You were obviously very organised, well-researched and realistic about the fact that it might not work out. However, I am fairly sure I am not the only first-time mother who has gone into hospital naively assuming that, as our bodies are made to feed our babies, they will indeed succeed in doing so, only to be proved very wrong.

For this reason, although I agree that hospitals shouldn't be expected to routinely provide formula for every baby, they should (and, I am sure, will) retain a supply of it for those babies whose mothers, like me, were caught out, just to last them until their DH/DP or other birth partner can get to the shops for their own supplies.

And on the superstitioin bit of my post, to me, milk wasn't like babygros and a car seat because I was going to provide the milk and would only need bottles and a steriliser a few weeks down the line and not from birth. Or so I thought.

I understand that, Oranges but I think we have a big problem with too many women and their partners going into birth and parenthood totally unprepared. They often have very unrealistic expectations based on magazines and films and just assume it will be a lovely, cosy affair.

Likewise, I'm always amazed that so many women spend the last few weeks of their pregnancy slouched on the sofa then give birth on a bed. Now of course, many women need to be monitored but I'm quite sure that some intervention could be avoided for some women if they were up and out every evening for long walks. It makes you ache, you're exhausted but it really helps prepare your body for birth. Why sit cosy of the sofa with choc and tea when you could be out in the cold for just a half hour each night walking briskly. Why not only sit on a birthing ball from, say, 30wks?

I'm going off on a tangent but it's all about preparation. Of course many women will prpare thoroughly and still end up with an ECS. But many more could avoid intervention by preparing a little more.

It's the same with the feeding. Plan to BF by all means but also be realistic that it may not work. Plan to have a natural birth but still be fully prepared to have forceps or an ECS if necessary and accept that if these things happen, you haven't failed, you've just taken a different path which is still ok. Delia, I cannot believe you were allowed to a week without anyone helping you and suggesting you give your DD some formula. The sad thing is that if she'd been given some formula earlier you would have been less stressed and your milk supply may have gone on to establish itself better allowing you to continue BF. You were treated badly and there is a big issue with lack of support and advice to help women like you who want to BF. The first piece of advice should be that if it's not happening straight away then giving one or two formula feeds early on if not going to automatically mean BF wont be established.

I dd my 2 dcs now 12 and 10, I wasn't even asked how I was going to feed them it was just presumed, and I was young and went along with it when the bottle was given to me by the midwife. We had no issues at all, I guess we were lucky if you listen to all he scaremongering, I even used to make a whole days bottles up on the morning and use as required from the fridge shock horror!
Now 10 years on I am pg again and a lot more confident. This time I hope to bf but will need support in order to do this as I am booked in for elcs. Should I "fail" I will take formula in just in case.
I have to admit to having taken extra bottles from the hospital when I had dc's and have probably contributed to the change in policy in no longer giving it out free.