Please help! I'm heartbroken today though it's my own fault. Very long

[Needsomewine]

apologies as I've had a few threads here in the last couple of weeks.

I have a 5 week old dd2. She was 2 weeks early, jaundiced, tongue tied but snipped on day 4. So bf was a challenge to start with but once my milk came in she started to get the hang of things. She is VERY sleepy so I had to wake her for feeds and tried to increase the frequency of feeds with mixed success. I stil had to top her up but she was off all top ups by about 2.5 wks. She has been slow to gain weight. She was born at 6lb 3oz and was only 7lb 3oz five weeks later. She only gained 8oz in the last 2 weeks. Cue huge anxiety by me when she was weighed on Tuesday and some feeds were given by bottle as I was too upset to feed her. I tried to express while dh fed her but wasn't very relaxed and didn't get much. With dd1 I got good amounts with expressing.

I am now convinced that because dd isn't a voracious feeder by any means , that my supply has dwindled down gradually and now with all my anxiety and missed feeds there's nothing left hardly. I saw an excellent paediatrician yesterday who reassured me and told me that dd perhaps still needed help until she got stronger. She was also trying to help me as I have dd and lots of other things going on, so she suggested to only feed dd for 20 mins, then offer a top up, then to express if I could. Great plan I thought.

Trouble is I just don't have any milk left- if it was a day earlier I perhaps could have saved the situation before my anxiety took over:( :(. dd has only fed successfully twice since in the last 24 hrs. Both of these times are when I didn't express the feed before so there was 6 hours worth of milk there. I totally realise that whilst she and I had a lovely feed:) :( that that's no way to build up milk- by leaving it for 6 hours.

I am trying to remain positive of being able to feed her but how will I ever het my supply back now. Dd just fussed and pulls off immediately when she doesn't get any milk after a couple of sucks. I have done 2 things- ordered a hospital grade pump which is coming tomorrow and asked dh to go and buy some motilium. Does anyone have any experience in this. I have just expressed after dd got nothing from me and I only got just over 1oz.

Morning NeedSomeWine I hope that the night was better than you expected.

Is DH off work today? If he is, hopefully you can spend a day snuggled up on the sofa/in bed with your DDs and a collection of DVDs, feeding DD2 when she fancies. Actually, I hope you do that whether DH is off work or not, I'm sure DD1 would love it.

Needsomewine I think you are me! I've said that every time - I'll get to x point and if it's not working give up or I'll give up as soon as they have a shakey weigh in but in reality, when faced with it I've clung on for dear life every time. With dc3 I got myself in a real state - practically fell apart. And I was determined to be rational this time. I nearly was

Give it what you've got but don't ever apportion blame. In the old days I would have been then one for whom everyone in the village would have helped out. Or, my offspring would have been the ones that def weren't the fittest surviving!

So, whilst I acknowledge that bf is absolutely the best thing for my babies, it is not always possible and I will therefore be grateful that I live in an age where I have access to a substitute which whilst it will never be able to give them what BM gives them, it certainly makes them thrive and grow. Which is more than I can do.

Good luck. Keep trying for as long as you want to.

Thank you for that buttonmoon. I think there's lots of people who've struggled like us, I know lots and lots of rl friends have. It's hard because I got it to work with dd1 and I thought I'd got it working with dd2.

Whilst a baby moon is great advice for average and Hoover like feeders, it simply won't work for poor sucking babies like dd2 after I've run my supply down with stress/ anxiety. The supply just isn't there and that is very stressful for me and dd.

For now, I simply can't stand to have failed breast feeds so haven't been putting her on. I have been expressing every 3 hours, my hospital pump has just arrived and I'm taking the domperidone. At best, I will get my supply back up, be able to give dd ebm and give me enough confidence to try dd on the breast again (and she'll hopefully be slighted stronger too). If my supply doesn't increase then I guess she'll get a bit of ebm for a few days and we'll have kind of got to the 6 week Mark with some kind of breastfeeding.

Hi Needsomewine, I had a very similar situation to yours and I've been heartbroken about it. Something I wish I'd done when I was at your stage is to have supplemented with a supplemental nursing system rather than a bottle while I built my supply up. By the time I had built my supply up a bit, she was not willing to breastfeed for long. It is a faff at first (but not too much more work than bottles), but it would have kept my DD on the breast longer. I'm not sure it would've worked (I believe I have supply issues due to her tt being unsnipped/my underactive thyroid, and I'm not sure even now that she has a strong enough suck to empty the breast anyway), but I wish we had tried.

The good news for us at this point is that she happily breastfeeds now for around 10 minutes before every bottle and also wants to comfort feed. From the low place we were in at around the same age as your DD, I'm happy to have made it this far (she's 15wks). If your DD is willing to breastfeed before her bottle, maybe that is an option for you? It's not EBFing, but it is something.

I know how hard it is, and how sad it makes you. You've done a wonderful job. It's so hard, and it feels so unfair. But feel as proud of yourself as you can. xx

First of all congratulations needsomewine on birth of DD2 !

Secondly, I understand, but I think you're worrying too much. One way or the other you will feed your DD2 and she will be fine !

Having said that I am very pro breast-feeding, and fed my two DC's for an extended time (to say the least !) Anyway I mention that because although fortunately they took to it like ducklings to water I never got very far with expressing. So, if you're keen to breast-feed for longer personally I'd concentrate less on lots of expressing and more on frequent feeding. - This is just my suggestion based on my own experience, but I hope it's of some help in your situation. I'm guessing even a short not very successful BFing session with DD might be good for boosting supply anyway. I'm not sure waiting for supply to build up for 6 hours is the best way to go with this. I think the lovely cuddle up in bed idea, like having a little nest, sounds more promising !

HTH - And those with wider experience and knowledge than my own might be able to help you further. But good luck, don't worry, and enjoy her !!

Oh I feel wobbly again now re my decision to stop putting dd on the breast.

feather blue I was looking at the SNS's on Friday and wish I'd ordered one now. Typical that it's the weekend.

I so wish I had realised how well we were doing on Tuesdays weigh in instead of wrecking my supply. At least she was feeding quite nicely, if lazily and I was enjoying it on the whole. If I'd have kept going with a few top ups, she'd have improved her suck in time I guess.

Does anyone know how long domperidone takes to work?

I have been taking them for 24 hrs now and was hoping for a miraculous change lol! But don't think expressing output has improved yet. I'm averaging 2-3oz every 3-4 hours. Only got 2oz with the hospital pump so I'm a bit discouraged.

I have found that when I take long deep breaths while nursing and visualise more milk coming, it does. The more you nurse, the more you will probs produce. Try to encourage yourself and DD to continue, sometimes after a period of dry nursing, within a couple of minutes a new lot is suddenly released. Personally, I cannot express, nothing comes out. So I wouldn't judge my milk supply based on that. Big hugs x

I know it's hard to keep putting her to the breast when you feel she's not getting much, but it was working before Tuesday and I bet it can work again. We had a horrible few weeks at one point when she screamed every single time I put her to the breast. :( It was so heartbreaking to me, but it's so worth it now when she 'asks' to bf. It makes me so glad we persevered. And you know that physically you are able to produce enough milk as you were doing so before, so hopefully that will get your confidence up.

I ordered my SNS online from www.expressyourselfmums.co.uk and got it in 2 days.

Also, in spite of your DD having special needs (being tongue-tied and needing a minor op ?) you've successfully breast-fed her for nearly 6 weeks - So, well done to you ! Everyone's experiences and situations are different. So, give yourself some credit !

needsomewine, sorry you are feeling low.

It's been discussed a few times that expressing is not an indication of how much milk a baby can get, nor an indication of production in general.

Of course you need to express to maintain your supply in the absence of the baby feeding direct so it's good you are doing this. But it does not sound as if it is reducing your anxiety :(

There were several posts after your weigh in on Tuesday which affirmed how well you were doing - and you yourself felt your baby was fine. I think it will help you if you try to work out what is preventing you from acting on this and what made you think the very same day/next day that all was going badly....and which then led you to do things you know will not help with bf.

I think this will help more than any devices, medication, or changes in feeding pattern, honestly.

tiktok the expressing has reduced part of my anxiety- the part which takes away the upset of a bad breast feed. BUT having decided to give up direct bf last night, I woke up this morning and was feeling sad about that. That signalled to me that I'm not ready to give up yet. I would love to get back to where I was last weekend where I was bf directly most of the time. And then because I agree with the paediatrician I saw, I would limit the time I was bf (perhaps not on all feeds) and top up and express. My disappointment of dd's weight gain IS still an issue for me and topping up would hopefully resolve this and make dd stronger.

On a positive note, I did put dd back on the breast this afternoon and I felt that she did well :). I am though anxious about the other side as she didn't get anything from there and made me bleed again. The latch is obviously not right. Do you think I should just concentrate on feeding on the good side for a couple of days if I can and express off the 'bad' side? That might help reduce my anxiety. I have always found it harder on the bad side but have found that when my supply was better and that breast was fuller, dd latched on and fed well IF she got the milk quickly.

You say you've had her tongue tie snipped, it is possible that it could have grown back, or that she could have another thing affecting her latch such as a lip tie.

It should be easy to check about the tongue tie by either trying to get her to stick her tongue out (see if she will copy you doing it) or feeling with a finger under her tongue, and a lip tie looks like this: Picture

No, her tongue was checked by the paediatrician on Thursday.

Tried her again on the breast this evening. I think I got her latched ok momentarily on my bad side but she didn't get anything. I would LOVE to have that engourged feeling again as she used to feed well when I was full. Although she used to feed ok that side anyway before my supply dipped.

Can anyone help with how long domperidone takes to work ( if it's going to work)?

Have you spoken to a BF counsellor in RL?

Also I distinctly remembering thinking I had run out of milk -I ran upstairs to squeeze my nips after a long feed as was convinced there was nothing there

There's so much going on in your head - speaking to a BF counsellor who has specific training and most likely to know more than a paediatrician on BF specifically will really help you. They can even help you sort out the feelings about whether or not you want to stop.

I've used both LLL and NCT plus a local lady came to visit me. Hardest step was making the call :)

Yes I've been to a bf group on Wednesday though that's when things were still stable. I have spoken to the same bf counsellor that helped me with dd1 today. She and I were both busy at different times so only 2 broken conversations but she may well be able to see me in person. She has actually leant me a SNS today but I'm a bit nervous of using it for hygiene reasons. She has had it a long time and goodness knows who's used it etc. What do you think?

I'd ask her about keeping it clean - I assume it gets sterilised etc? Otherwise you'd only worry. I think it's reasonable to ask.
Also def worth getting her to see you in person and you mentioned possible latch problems.

My DD had a tongue tie snipped and I felt that it took a good few weeks after that for her feeding to become properly efficient. My advice would therefore be to keep at it, breastfeeding as often as possible.

I could only ever express about 2oz at a time and never really got on with it. I don't think this is an indicator of your supply though as babies get a lot more than a pump ever will. They also take more than you would think and breast fullness isn't a very good indicator either. Have faith and keep the weigh-ins regular and hopefully it will get better.

I have heard very good things about lactation cookies, though I've never tried them myself. Might be worth a go?! Recipes all over the net.

Good luck :)

I don't think I'll risk using her SNS. I would worry, like you say Iggly. Maybe I'll order one though.

I'm trying to remain calm here but not easy. I'm back to putting dd on the breast at every feed. She feeds every 3 hours. I've only once been confident that she's feeding properly on my bad side though:(. Maybe the latch was never very good and that's why I had bleeding and my supply was always less on that side anyway. But she did used to feed fine on that side. I need to get someone to check that side I think. Infact I really need someone to move in 24/7 at th moment and hold my hand!

For the moment I'm still limiting bf's to 30 mins max and then dh is topping up and I'm expressing. I know lots of you will tell me that's not a good plan but maybe it's the best thing for me at the moment? Ensures dd stays at the breast but also gets the calories she needs and stops me getting exhausted and ill again????

Yes please get someone over to help you!

What happens if you keep her on for more than 30 mins? You sound like you need to rest in any case!

If I kept her on longer, she would probably carry on feeding slowly but I couldn't do that and express and have a rest/ get anything done too. I have lost confidence in my ability to 100% directly bf her since the last weigh in. So this seems a good compromise, although a bit of a faff.

I know you say it helps you but all of the expressing and 3 hour feeding etc is not going to be helping your supply. Is your health visitor any good - what is she saying about weight gain? Is there actually a problem with milk transfer that has been recognised by a professional?
Breastfeeding IS a leap of faith - you are never going to know how much your baby has drank. But it sounds like you are having a number of different problems, which are being exacerbated by timed feeds and expressing.

Shr...- not what I needed to hear after a bad feed, feel I am doing the best I can and need some encouragement :(. What is wrong with timed 3 hr feeds, they are obviously more often if dd demands them?

As I've said before, I am struggling to latch her on long enough to feed on my bad side. I feel this is because my supply is low.

My bf counsellor says best thing for now is to try the SNS.

I'm sorry for that sounded. Just feeling fragile and now questioning my latch on top of everything else. Getting the SNS ready and hoping for a bit of success though I can see it is very diddly to use. :(

Oh, I'm so pleased to hear your DD is back on the breast - well done to you, I'm sure she'll be very happy there !
Sorry to hear your having a few problems on one side - one little thought that maybe psychologically it would be better to call them your left and right sides, rather than thinking of one as the "bad" side ? - though obviously one side has been giving you more grief up till now - but I'm sure whatever the problem is there could be solved with appropriate support.
Good luck - hope things continue to go from strength to strength. And remember, it's all good ! Also, you have to do what seems right for you and DD at each moment, others can only give you (their best) advice !
Are you going to try the SNS - I don't know much about how those work, but have heard good in some situations.

Needsomewine - I think your plan is a good one to get your supply up while keeping your DD at the breast, while also allowing yourself a little rest. You are doing a fantastic job in very trying circumstances. Your supply was enough to sustain her less than a week ago -- I bet it won't take long to get it back to that point, and maybe you'll feel confident enough to go back to letting her get everything she needs from you then.

It might be good to still let your DD feed from you alone for 30 min, then start using the SNS? That way she still knows the urge to continue breastfeeding to get more milk, if that makes sense? I found the SNS fiddly, but my DD got used to it pretty quickly. It was a faff for me, but she didn't mind it. It helped to have my DH do the taping/adjusting while I just worked on getting her latched on with it. After we used it awhile, I could do both myself.