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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

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Original poster

Breast feeding trouble

55 replies

littlemiracle · 14/12/2005 14:21

Hi everybody,

I'm new to this and could really do with some help. After having breast cancer i was given the go ahead to have a baby, who is now 10 wks old. I'm only able to feed from my right breast as left one is pretty much display only! Initially, I did what i was told and breast fed exclusively for 6 wks but she always seemed hungry so i started her on formula as well about 3 wks ago. the problem i'm having is that she only feeds for 5 maybe 10 mins on the breast at any one time, and then is hungry again after an hour or so, but she won't latch on. If I keep persisting, it usually ends in tears and the last thing I want to do is to put her off the breast. It's at this point i offer the bottle.She feeds well on this taking 3/4 ozs in one go, so i've started to alternate between bottle and breast - not sure of this is the right thing to do. I've heard that the first 5/10 mins of feeding is foremilk and then the hindmilk comes through. If this is true does it mean that the little one is missing out each time? I've also tried expressing after a feed but it's usually only 1 oz. She was 6lbs 11 oz when she was born and is now about 11lbs so weight gain is steady.I've tried to explain this to my health visitor but she's not much help.
Please can someone help.
Thank you

OP posts:

PrettyCandlesAndTinselToo · 14/12/2005 14:30

Hi, littlemiracle (lovely nickname, I quite agree ) and welcome.

A more expert person will be along shortly, I'm sure, but, from my experience with mix-feeding, I think your dd wants to suck, rather than to feed. Have you tried a dummy? She may well seem to spit it out at first, as a ababy this young can rarely hold a dummy in by herself, but if she settles with you helping her hold the dummy in, then you will know it is sucking that she needs, rather than feeding. A dummy will not pacifiy a hungry baby for long.

If you start skipping bfs and alternating breast and bottle, then your bm will reduce. Sorry to be so blunt. I bfd ds every feed and 'topped-up' with formula. The top-up soon became a full feed, but I persisted with the breast, and at about 6w began to drop bottles and increase bm. I'm not saying that that is what you should do! Just that by continuing with the breast I was able to produce enough milk to drop some bottles, but that by droping breast feeds you will inevitably increase bottle feeds.

You'll get more opinions!

PrettyCandlesAndTinselToo · 14/12/2005 14:32

BTW, as you're giving her formula, don't worry about the fore and hind milk business. Any way, some babies are very efficient feeders and 5-10mins is a full feed for them. Is feeding physically comfortable for you (wondering whether she's latching on well) and are you drinking plenty of water or juice and getting enough rest during the day?

moondog · 14/12/2005 14:41

You need to really commit to getting your supply up so that you can drop the bottle feeds (if this is your aim.

This will mean a good few days of near non stop feeding and lots of skin to skin contact.

Will keep bumping this for you,so it appears at the top of the list of 'hot' threads.

Helenemjay · 14/12/2005 14:47

Oh its hard work isnt it LM? I panicked and put dd on bottles a couple of weeks ago and decided to stop breastfeeding completely as it all got so difficult and my dd was fussing at the breast all the time and seemed hungry all the time too but after 3 days of bottles and she was just the same i realised that it wasn my milk that was the problem so i slowly got rid of the bottles and got back to exclusive breastfeeding! - this was hard work!!! i had to put her to the breast as often as possible and make sure she fed as much as possible each time! then i would give her top ups but as little as possible and every couple of days i would reduce the amount of formula i gave her at each top up! we have only in the last 3 days got rid of all top ups completely - so it took us a little while, but if your REALLY determined and you give it all youve got it will work out! - well done for keeping at it though - its very hard work sometimes isnt it??

kiskidee · 14/12/2005 14:54

I remember around this age dd would also fuss at the breast and it was nothing to do with supply/hunger. try walking around with her while you feed and shhing at the same time. could she also just be bored and will accept the bottle feed rather because that is less work than bf? I think even now sometimes I feed dd when she really is just bored and I immediately assume she is hungry.

tiktok · 14/12/2005 16:14

Great to hear of your wonderful baby, LM.....

Sounds as if you have not had good help with the bf. I would confirm what's already been said : carry on doing what you are doing and your milk will go.

Please ignore all the rubbish you have heard about foremilk and hindmilk. There is no way this can have a timer on it - and the hindmilk doesn't 'come through' in the way you are assuming. Fat in the milk is directly proportional to the amount of milk in the breast - a massively full breast will have milk that is proportionately higher in water compared to a breast with not much milk in it, which will be propotionately higher in fat. The milk gets creamier as the milk is removed, and the speed of this removal has nothing to do with the clock, and everything to do with the way your baby sucks and your own let down. Forget about the clock.

Search on my name and foremilk hindmilk in the mumsnet archives for more stuff about this if you are interested!

The only way you can retrieve this eminently retrievable situation is to start reducing/cutting out the formula as soon as you can, and feeding more often. You need to give your baby lots of skin to skin contact so she feeds more often, and doesn't cry to be fed.

You can certainly make enough milk for your baby with only one breast, but you would expect to be feeding very often to build up and maintain a supply...maybe feeding with very short gaps between feeds. Currently you are giving your baby maybe 14-16 oz in total of formula every day, yes? This is simply not compatible with maintaining a milk supply with a young baby, and your milk is dwindling as a result...much better you know this so you can take action.

Call any of the bf telephone lines and speak to someone about turning this situation around.

You deserve the very best help and support. What a shame the people whose job it is to offer this have been no use....

tiktok · 14/12/2005 16:16

(BTW, Helen, well done on turning your own situation round!!)

moondog · 14/12/2005 16:18

Ah,glad that tik tok is here.
She is arguably our greatest asset on MN, littlemiracle.

expatinscotland · 14/12/2005 16:18

How about expressing first thing the morning? Or after a shower? I've been doing it after a shower and getting loads.

Also maybe some fenugreek for supply.

tiktok · 14/12/2005 16:21

expressing is ok, and so is fenugreek.

But expressing is not as good as an effectively feeding baby.

If you have time to express, you've got time to fit in another feed 'direct'.

But nowt wrong with expressing if the baby is asleep and/or really won't feed.

Helenemjay · 14/12/2005 16:50

Thanks tiktok!

expatinscotland · 14/12/2005 17:16

Or if baby has ripped a gash in your nipple!

Funny, when she first did it, it just looked like blisters. Lansinoh to the rescue!

NotQuiteCockney · 14/12/2005 17:42

Oh, Helen, glad to hear you turned it around!

Littlemiracle, tiktok really knows her stuff. You can go back to exclusive breastfeeding, if you want to.

dulwichmummy · 14/12/2005 19:14

Can't really add to the excellent advice from tiktok and others, but just wanted to congratulate you LM on your baby's arrival. It is always fab to hear news of a new baby and esp after everything you have been through! Sorry think the lack of sleep and general seasonal cheer (read booxy lunch with work colleagues!) making me very sentimental. Keep up the feeding - you are doing a top job xxxx

Original poster

littlemiracle · 14/12/2005 20:40

Thanks everyone for your advice - i didn't expect so many responses so quickly - thank you.
I'm taking all things into consideration and have decided on a plan. 1. to cut back on the amount of formula given as top up 2. start the fenugreek to help boost supply 3. to feed from breast more frequently.

She latches onto breast quite well and i'm trying out the rugby position now as she likes to be able to see my face when feeding.

Thanks for the note on foremilk and hindmilk tiktok. It was something i'd read in the Baby Whisperer book and it was really making me depressed.

Will update on situation.

OP posts:

tiktok · 14/12/2005 21:02

The Baby Whisperer and Gina Ford don't understand about foremilk and hindmilk, LM. They get this (and a lot of other stuff related to feeding) very wrong. Just ask anyone who knows about bf!

Your plan sounds fine

Cristina7 · 14/12/2005 21:04

Fab weight gain for your little one. There's some good advice at www.kellymom.com

hunkermunker · 14/12/2005 21:05

As a bit of an aside, has anyone professional ever challenged GF re her ridiculous assertions about bfeeding?

moondog · 14/12/2005 21:28

As another aside,Helen,it's great to hear that you managed to get back to full breastfeeding.

Brilliant!

teabagsandwine · 14/12/2005 21:39

I find that expressing at night, around 10pm, is a good way to keep my supply up. Its become a real PITA and I tried cutting it out for a few nights but my milk supply diminished rapidly.

nanneh · 14/12/2005 22:26

hunker - good point. I literally burnt my GF book when DS was born. He is now 17 months - still bf happily for both of us, and will do so until he wants to stop.

I can't possibly see how you can put a bf baby on a 3-hour feeding schedule, as recommended by GF, et al. Load of rubbish ! What do you do when baby gets hungry every hour, like mine did until he was about 3 months old (through the night as well or like LM's baby ?

LM - you are doing a fantastic job ! Come to MN or speak to a bf adviser (LLL, NCT, etc.) - don't waste your time with those books.

kiskidee · 15/12/2005 05:13

teabags, the only reason i express is because i also work fulltime. if i didn't, i wouldn't bother at all. imo, otherwise it is just another thing for a busy mommy to do.

Original poster

littlemiracle · 15/12/2005 10:03

update on last night. I resorted to bottle at 11pm and 9am as little one really struggled with the breast. I checked breast by expressing a little first and virtually nothing came out.
On a positive note she did feed twice of breast during the night
I'm going out in a bit to get the fenugreek so fingers crossed it'll help boost the milk.
If Baby Whisperer and Gf don't know about bf should I not follow advice for other topics like sleeping routines etc?

OP posts:

RacersTheRedNosedReindeer · 15/12/2005 10:27

lm, don't forget that expressing is a tricky business and DD is far, far better at getting that milk out. I can hardly get a drop now when I express but DD is doing fine on bm so it's no indicator really. Sorry if you already knew that. Anyway, like you say, a couple of night feeds is good for both of you and for boosting production. Good luck with the fenugreek

I personally have not read GF or BW, but tried to go along with DD's needs - she settled into a BW style pattern herself (though I didn't know it at the time) - it was eat, play, sleep on 2-3hr rotation. It just seemed to be what she needed/wanted. I think the books may provide some guidance but personally wouldn't stress it if DD didn't comply

tiktok · 15/12/2005 11:12

LM - it's a mistake to 'judge' your bf by what you can get out by expressing.

Just feed

The GF and BW advice on bf is totally connected to their advice on sleeping routines, so if you ignore the bf stuff, then it would also follow to ignore the sleeping stuff. IMO.

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