Is my 10 week breast-fed child sad? Crying before feeding/in sleep

[GrannysLittlePickle]

Possibly the wrong board but I'm really worried my DD is unhappy or doesn't like me or something...

I pick up on her cues to feed before she starts crying, then as soon as I have her on my lap and am pulling up my top she starts crying! She will then feed but often pulls off - have I done something wrong to traumatise her about feeding? I reoffer the breast when she pulls off but don't hold her on if she is definitely refusing. If she is having her evening hell-time yell I will put it in her open yelling mouth as sometimes she decides that actually, yes, she is hungry, and it sorts the yelling. Is this forcing her to feed?

She also pulls a really sad face and cries in her sleep.

I am worrying that I didn't give her enough cuddles or milk early on and she has bad memories/feelings - we didn't cosleep until after the first week and I had real problems establishing breastfeeding. I also sometimes resent her waking me in the night when I'm really tired and so am possibly not as loving/gentle with her as I could be - she wakes every 2 to 1 1/2 hours.

During the day I offer her the breast about every hour as that is how often she seems to want it - more in the evenings... When we are out/distracted it can be less. Is this too often? Is she getting fed up with me just shoving a boob in her face all the time?

I just keep thinking I'm not being as good a mum as I should be....

I try really hard to co-nap as I am exhausted - when she does it rarely is longer than 30mins....

wrt the overtired baby thing - sometimes the only thing to do was to put ds in his pram and walk. Anywhere.

Cuddles seemed to over-stimulate him at times like those, but the gentle bumping up and down of his pram soothed him to sleep within minutes, the fresh air did us both good and the traffic drowned out his wailing

Grannyslittlepickle, I don't want to pathologise what could be absolutely normal behaviour in a young baby, but it might be worth considering if your DD has a problem with cow's milk protein passing through your breast milk. The reason I say this is because my DS was almost exactly as you describe and was a different baby when unmodified cow's milk was removed from his diet. In particular, he was incredibly uncomfortable in the car seat because he had a sore stomach which was further compressed by the position of his maxi-cosi. He also had/ has reflux too which doesn't help.

You would probably have to cut out all sources of milk (e.g., whey powder and skimmed milk powder in products like biscuits and even surprising things like breadcrumbed fish, as well as obvious things like butter and cheese for at least a couple of weeks to see if any difference.

All you're describing could be perfectly normal tho, I just wanted to raise this as a possibility.

Narmada -thanks for that and in fact I am on a mostly dairy free diet as she was throwing up a lot - that has now improved. Which bits of my post are related to cows milk protein intolerance? - I'd like to know if I need to cut out even the small amounts I'm still eating.... she seems OK most of the time, and actually is happier in the car seat than she used to be - I put it down to her being big enough to sit comfortably in it now!

Mind you - having complained about naps - yesterday she napped for Britain! Maybe it was the baby massage...

grannyslittlepickle there are some great ideas already here. Young babies don't ever 'dislike' their mothers - it's not actually possible for them to make that emotional judgement, because of the way the brain and understanding have yet to develop. But it is certainly possible for a baby to feel, momentarily, frustration and confusion, and all babies feel these and other negative sensations at times....your baby does not sound especially prone to these, though, from what you say. Your own growth in confidence and feelings of self-worth will help you deal with your concerns about her reactions, and this in turn will teach your baby that her feelings will not become overwhelming and that the world is a safe place.

It sounds as if you are very alone and a bit scared of seeking out help - you have plans to deal with that, great :) Would it help you to think about more focussed help, so you could add counselling (referral from your doctor) or other 'talking therapy' to your plans? If you have experienced less than ideal parenting yourself as a daughter, it can be very hard to feel confident you are doing it right when you are a parent yourself. But these feelings can be overcome.

tiktok - I think you've hit the nail on the head that I'm not confident in my parenting skills - despite having read every book I could lay my hands on - this is one very "researched" baby!

I've had counselling before for depression, and know you have to wait 18months
on the NHS and I can't pay at the minute, I'll just make more of an effort to go out... and today I drove into town to meet colleagues after work for coffee - I found it very stressfull, but I'm glad I did it...

Not sure you're right about the 18 months in your situation - maybe a quick visit to the GP? :)

My baby (12 weeks) does exactly the same things. The crying before/during feeds is usually when she is overstimulated. I often have to take her to a darkened room to calm down. Also, when she's too flustered to feed, I find it helps to bamboozle her a little - make a loud noise (brrr works nicely) and pat her bottom. Seems to help her forget why she was flustered. :)

grannys the pulling off the breast/ bottle thing can be completely normal and can happen for a variety of completely benign reasons, but for my two babies it has been a sign that something else wasn't right. Both had issues with cow's milk and second also had reflux on top.

Short sleep durations can be completely normal as well but again sleep 'issues' can also be associated with cow's milk protein issues. certainly it was the case with my two but I am aware that two children and the collected experience of friends does not a scientific study make. In my son's case, he would wake himself up being sick in his cot and gagging on it - by morning time, there were about 8 splats around his head (yuck). He also had quite apparent stomach cramps which would wake him from sleep. Having said that, feeding 2-hourly or more frequently is totally normal (if tiring) for BF infants.

WRT the dairy avoidance in your diet - yes, I'm afraid that it's sometimes necessary to completely eliminate all sources of dairy from your diet. Given you have noticed an improvement since giving up obvious dairy, then I would say this is worth a shot. Soy can be a cross-allergen for babies with cow's milk issues and also sometimes needs to be avoided, but that is taking you into very limited dietary territory - if you're going to do either/ both of these long-term I think it's very worthwhile getting a dietician's advice on maintaining a healthy diet for you.

I really think that it's crucial you look after you too. Your GP certainly shouldn't make you wait for a long time for talking therapy in your situation - e.g., having a young baby and a prior history of depression. Have you ever tried medication for depression, by the way? For me it has literally been a life-saver. There is stuff that's compatible with breastfeeding if you do feel that perhaps you're getting depressed. It can be an awfully difficult time, especially if you feel that everything's not completely peachy with feeding or other stuff. You sound like you're being a brilliant mother - keep going, you'll get through it and will feel like a different person again in a few months' time.

Maybe step away from the books? I know they are very alluring in the early weeks when every time someone told me to trust my instincts I felt like saying my overwhelming instinct was to hurl myself hard at the nearest wall in the hope of knocking myself unconscious and achieving five minutes peace.

Actually you do have nurturing instincts, we all do, even if they are confused by the bits of our brains telling us 'we mustn't make a rod for our own backs' or the other bits which seethe with anxiety and guilt and even sadness about not getting it right. I had an epiphany when DD was 11 weeks old and at the end of the day I could think 'There were lots of time today when I dangled DD in the air and sang nonsense to her not to stop her crying but because I knew she liked it.' The books don't know things like that about your baby, only you know those special things. If you take a deep breath and step back and focus on what you have already learnt you might surprise yourself.

I promise it gets easier and easier. We're just starting on temper tantrums here and whilst I dreaded them they are so much easier to handle than newborn wailing because I now have an innate sense of what DD wants and what she needs. And I know she is happy a lot of the time so if I cannot secure her happiness all the time (which is impossible when she will only be happy if she is allowed to play with screwdrivers) I'm still a good mother.

Please ask your GP and/or HV about being referred for counselling - if there is provision, you would not have to wait 18 months for it, given your situation. You might even get help straight away.

Narmada - I'm not sure I can cope without my 4am hobnobs! And yes previously I have been on Prozac, seroxat, amatryptiline, citalopram and another - all different depression episodes though! I'm not keen to go back on meds - I always feel really flat on them - don't feel the good bits as well as not feeling the bad bits.

Tiktok - I'm not sure I'm bad enough to need counselling IYSWIM. I'm not sure how much is hormonal/tiredness and how much is depression, and am thinking to wait out to see if improved sleeping when she is older helps the anxiousness/tearfullness/other stuff...

Oh and wish me luck - off to a breastfeeding support group now! Baby is fed, nappy changed, and due a nap soonish..... so I should be able to get out the door?

GrannyLittlePickle - Have you checked she is latched on properly, as it could be that she is feeding loads but the milk is not letting down properly after the first taste - she is sucking on a straw rather than getting a mouthful of milk.
I had an experience of UNDERSUPPLY although baby was feeding all the time. I was completely exhausted, baby was gaining only slowly and MISERABLE, seemed very tense and alert all the time, not peaceful zonked out as you'd expect after a proper feed. I was given bad advice, and my baby was actually hungry and that was the reason he was so "wired". I turned it around by addressing the latch (most important first step)
babymooning
stopped trying to get him to nap but cuddled up with him in bed a lot
feeding every two hours on the dot in the day but not drip feeding him endlessly.
also I supplemented with formula for a while (although that's another story and not necessarily what I needed to do) I dropped formula by 4 months (again another story) and breastfed till 10 months including when he was weaned. I only stopped feeding at 10months due to trying to conceive next baby!

He was a changed baby by 11 weeks. Put on loads of weight, say 8oz, or even Ib a week over next weeks, as if he was catching up on a previous deficit. So calm, slept long naps, just happy. It was to do with calories. Previously he had always had loads of wet nappies, and explosive green poo, and I had never thought it could be lack of calories that was makign him miserable. But when I changed the latch and the feeding routine and got a bit more sleep at night I began to realise he had indeed been crying out for more food.

So see a breastfeedign counsellor, please.

Most importantly I wanted to add, I noticed I had far more MILK when I corrected the latch. I could feel it gushing down when he fed, whereas previously that wasn't the case after first three weeks. He pulled off when I fed because he was frustrated that the milk wasn't there in sufficient quantities, which I think what you may have been describing when you said the baby pulled off. He also suffered a lot from wind because he was always getting the watery stuff at the beginnign of the feed, never the heavy duty milk stored at the back of the breast. [Am I talkign bollocks here? It's been a long time)

Anyway that was my experience, I feel awful I didn't recognise the baby was hungry, and I suffered a lot from tiredness and exhaustion dealign with a miserable baby so the worst of both worlds really!

Sorry I haven't been back sooner. I haven't got hold of the NCT counsellor so didn't have anything to add and you've had soooo much good advice on here already that I didn't think Icould add anything.

Now I see you're off to see the BF counsellors yourself so I just wanted to say GOOD LUCK. I hope it goes really well

Grannys, loads of biscuits you can eat that don't have dairy . Some home-brand digestives, fig rolls, some fruit shrewsbury-type things, really, it might be worth a try.

Re the depression - yes I do know what you mean about feeling flat, they have slightly the same effect on me and as for what they do to your libido . All the same I would urge you to go back to your GP sooner rather than later to discuss the options - as you say, things may get better when your DD starts sleeping better (sleep dep a major factor in my blues too) but really, with your history, I wouldn't take any risks. Sorry if that seems a bit negative, but I have been there recently and I don't want anyone to go through what I went through.

Gosh you sound just like me. I was constantly worried that my LO wasn't happy and that I was making her sad by co-sleeping and feeding through the night, and on demand. Now she is 10MO and cheery and smiley and very energetic!

It's so easy to blame yourself for the crying etc but please don't be hard on yourself. It's so easy to say with hindsight but seriously please don't give yourself a hard time.

How did the support group go GrannysLittlePickle? (Its LittleMissBabybrain by the way, I nanechanged) hope it went well and you're feeling a little less alone now :)

I used to eat hob nobs as they were dairy free, so check the ingredients.

With regard to bf groups I really found my local one worth a 20 min drive, really helped, pleasant people, all sorts of suggestions and good ideas, no pressure and people who really understood the issues. I got chance to talk to a real live adult and practice my bf in public. Groups are usually so not my thing, I was pleasantly surprised.

The group was good, got my latch checked - the counsellor said I'm doing it right but my nipple is a little deformed after, and DD keeps breaking the seal so it clicks a lot. The counsellor couldnt improve what I was doing though and said some babies are just a bit lazy. She watched a feed and thought she was getting enough - coming off satisfied, just being lazy!

Glad the group went well and fab that the BF counsellor thought she was satisfied. But.... - the lipstick shaped nipple and the clicking.... makes me immediately think tongue tie , rather than lazy baby. Those are both absolutely classic signs. The BF counsellor may have checked for it but unless you really, really know what you're looking for it's easy to miss, especially if it's a posterior tie. The Lactation Consultants of Great Britain website has a list of tongue tie dividers and there might be one local to you who will take a look.

A simple snip with a dab of local anaesthetic will sort it out if it is tongue tie.

The pulling off and crying mid feed is something my dd and Ds2 both did and both had reflux. I spotted it sooner with Ds2 because of having Dd before. From birth he kept losing weight for the first couple of weeks. I posted on here about him refusing to latch on when he was tiny, we were struggling. The hv was talking about hospital if he didn't start gaining. I discussed reflux with her and she said to to the Dr for some gaviscon to see if it helped before she referred us to hospital. It totally turned him around. After 1 day of gaviscon he had gained weight for the first time. Now he's 8 weeks and thriving and feeding well. He still gets very uncomfortable and difficult to settle but he feeds well and is gaining weight nicely.

The feeding hourly thing sounds like the situation with my Dd. I think sometimes babies can mistake discomfort for hunger. Or it's just us misinterpreting the signals and you can get into a cycle of feeding too often which can actually make them more uncomfortable and so on. I found that once I managed to get dd to go longer between feeds she was more settled. I really don't think a 10 week old should need feeding hourly. Ds2 is 8 weeks and has just shifted from feeding more or less 3 hourly to feeding 4 hourly. He then gets a nice awake spell and a decent nap before the next feed. He's ebf and I'm not leaving him to cry hungry to force him into this routine. I know all babies are different and yours may well not be ready to go so long between feeds but it may be worth trying to go for 2 hourly rather than 1 to start off. Try using a dummy to settle between feeds if you don't already.

Last thing that occurred to me reading through is that I accidentally stumbled on the cure for hell hour with dd when I introduced a bottle of formula for the early evening feed. It turned out she was just really hungry and I didn't have enough milk for her at that time of day. That would back up what the previous poster said about under rather than over supply being the problem. I'm not suggesting formula is your answer btw, just saying that's how I worked out what had been the issue for dd. Giving her that bottle gave me a rest which seemed to help supply so she was more satisfied with subsequent feeds.

Good luck. You've done really well to get so far with these issues. It must have been hard going. Do look after yourself. It's not worth damaging your health, mental or physical, over feeding the baby. I know I felt the early feeding issues with dd really spoilt my time with her and interfered with my relationship with her.

It will get easier.

zdcgbjm I may be misinterpreting the signals a bit - yesterday I tried to get her to go a full 2 hours between feeds, and she lasted to 1 1/2 hours before getting upset. I don't want to leave it until full on crying as then she is a nightmare to latch on with hands everywhere!
I'm glad you found your answer with a bottle of formula, but she refuses the bottle (tried ebm) so that's a no-go for us. Although the last few days she's just got slightly grumpy in the evening, not inconsolable, so she may be growing out of that anyway...

narmada if she does have tongue tie, but is getting enough milk to gain, and I'm not sore, does it need fixing? She gained 8oz a week in the first few weeks (apart from the very first one obviously) then averaged 5oz for the next 3, and I'm getting her weighed this week to see how she's done this past 3..

Oh and in the days since I've posted this - she's been giving me at least one 3 hour stretch of sleep at night, sometimes 2! Maybe it's because I'm trying to be more chilled and not checking on her constantly - I think maybe I've been waking her up, and feeding her on sleeping noises rather than when she was stirring...