Breastfeeding in prison

[prisonvisitor]

I'm off to visit my brother in prison (HMP Stocken) on Sunday. This will be the first time I have been with my 7 week old ebf dd.

Now I'm not allowed to take the pushchair/carseat/blanket in with me so I'm guessing she'll wake up as soon as I pick her up.

The prison website says you can bottle feed in the visiting room but not breast feed and if I wish to do so I can go to a private room. So I'll be doing a 4 hour round trip to spend 2 hours with my brother probably to spend half of it feeding in a private room!!

Can they refuse to let me bf in the room if I'm comfortable with it? I am very discrete when I feed but I'm guessing one of the many prison officers will notice if they're doing their jobs properly!!

I have breastfed both my children including in public - church, shops etc.

I have also spent many years working in prisons, and would not advocate feeding in a visiting room. It is not a public place (it is inside a prison) and is not appropriate in my opinion. I would ask the prison for an extended visit citing the feeding issue as a reason, and use the private room to feed as and when required.

I do not see the ruling as discriminatory, merely protective of all parties involved. Prisons are risky places for a multitude of reasons that the public do not need to know about - trust the professionals that they know what they are doing.

verylittlecarrot - have you much experience of being in a male prison environment?

What you say is true in that women ought to be able to breastfeed anywhere without any risk occuring. But a male prison is very unusual environment and certainly not like normal society.

The way a prison visiting room is set up there would be a potential risk to the mother and the baby. I have suggested ways this could be reduced but the optiosn would either be costly, invade the mothers privacy or mean banning food/babies full stop.

Just being female in the environment brings about crude almost bordering on verbal assault type comments and attempts to touch, etc. And that is when you are covered up entirely with no cleavage even vaguely on show.

There is a risk of something happening. It is too late once this has happened and when it involves a baby then sometimes I think it is better to go for prevention rather than dealing with it after it happens.

Why can none of you answer my question?

In a male prison. They would have to deal with racisum etc on a daily basis. They can't get away from those issues. They can however avoid sexual harassment and abuse.

Hulababy; I've no personal experience of being in a prison environment. Why is that relevant? I'm gonna take a leap of imagination and suggest that some fairly nasty characters are banged up.

It is interesting that everyone who has commented on this thread who has experience of working in a male prison is supportive of the 'no bfing in visiting room' rule. It is however a very interesting argument....

Because it is very different. Until I worked in a prison I had no real idea of justt what it is like in there. It can in no way be likened to normal society. It's not just about those prisoners in for serious sexual offences who can behave in this kind of manner, especially towards females. It is a big chunk of the prison population. Is it because of the male only environment? I don't know, I suspect the fact that they have no inttimate female contact with their partners doesn't help in stirring up emotions to an extent.

I just think the environment is such that it makes it a very undesireable place when it comes to wanting to breastfeed a baby. TBH I'd look at using a private room for feeding as and when necessary.

verylittlecarot - what question is it you want answering? I thought I'd covered most things.

Bollocks I had noticed that too but wondered if it was a case of "well it's always been this way and should remain so"...sometimes it's hard to see outside the box when you are inside it.

I did give suggestions of ways it might be possible but they involve money and staffing.

My question is if the situation is so volatile then why you would give LESS protection to the groups who in reality are MORE likely to face abuse from prisoners.

Do people really feel that breastfeeding women who in reality probably display no visible flesh - I actually have a nursing poloneck, for goodness sake...

...are SO MUCH MORE at risk of abuse than ethnic minorities, physically or mentally disabled visitors, homosexual partners, transexuals, or even just women wearing low cut tops and short skirts that THEY are the one and only group who must be hindered?

Because I think that the protection the prison service gives to all of the above visitors has to be adequate for the nursing mother.

The reason they get away with singling this group out is because they are seen as fair game, and so many normal folks who would otherwise be appalled by the suggestion that the visitor is responsible for the prisoners actions, have a blind spot when it comes to breastfeeding women, and condone the action.

This thread is depressing.

Noone here ahas vaguely suggested that the nursing mother would be at fault should anything occur. Infact I said that the prisoner would be and would be dealt with.

The levels of supervision are sufficient for minimising - not preventing - assaults and abuse of most discriminating groups.

My concern would be that if something occured to a nursing mother a baby could be hurt, and reacting afterwards is too late.

The risk may well be minimal. Some people may be able to breastfeed with no glimpses of flesh/breast at all. Many can't or don't though. And exposure of flesh is a concern in a male prison. The fact that a nursing mother is prevented from exposing her breasts is not limited to the nursing mum only - this rule goes for all women working in the male prison.

I just feel, from experience, that the current system is not an ideal environment for breasting a baby.

If changes can be made to the visiting room then it may be more possible.

I think the debate really ought to move on from what happens currently to what changes could viably made to make it safer and possible for nursing mothers o breastfeed their baby with no element of risk.

And to me it is the presence of the baby at such close quarters that is the key concern.

I escaped from the box 2 years ago moonface

In a prison environment you learn to rely on your gut instinct, and are constantly evaluating risk. My gut feeling is that it would be an unwise thing to do.

verylittlecarrot as you say you have no experience of this environment. Surely when we seek opinions about a situation, we are more likely to approach or trust those with experience?

Have to say that I haven't been working in the prison system for 2.5 years now.

Just being female in the environment brings about crude almost bordering on verbal assault type comments and attempts to touch, etc.

I'm confused. Why is this type of behaviour allowed in visiting rooms? Surely having visitors is a privilege, not a right, for prisoners? Why would any prisoner who acts this way be afforded the privilege of having visitors or being in the visitor room?

Genuine question as I have no experience of prisons or visitors rooms. But surely if there's such a delicate balance between adequate security and prisoners kicking off, then there's a problem with the system. Breastfeeding mothers are the very least of the issue.

i agree with verylittle. How can rules be made on the basis of someone else's irrational thinking...when by it's nature that irrationality could be directed at anyone making it hard to predict. So we discriminate against one group in order to get away with inadequate security, thereby surely putting others at risk. We just don't know which random others yet. Sorry...waffle over:-.

This happens throughout the prison not in the visiting rooms. In corridors, work shops, classrooms, etc.

It is dealt with but it is si widespread it is an ongoing battle. There are many procedures to deal with it. But as with most things, they only happen after the event.

Prisoners can abd do lose visiting rights at times.

OK, I'm genuinely interested in this discussion, I'm not merely spoiling for a fight. I think this scenario, whilst far removed from most people's experience, is an intensified reflection of general attitudes about breastfeeding, and I truly want to debate practicalities, ethics and legalities. Because I genuinely believe that too many people see discrimination against nursing mothers as not that big a deal, and that prevailing attitude permeates all walks of life and makes breastfeeding that much harder for us all.

Practically: if the environment is not safe for a nursing mother then it cannot be safe to have babies in the room at all. It's absurd to allow babies and children into an environment where - apparently - inmates pose such an enormous risk to a breastfeeding mother. The fact that such vulnerable people as babies are allowed in the room means that there ARE appropriate levels of security to keep them and all visitors safe, even if inmates kick off. No-one can convincingly argue that security is adequate to protect all visitors of all ages, colours, creeds, sexual persuasions, religions, abilities EXCEPT nursing mothers? That is patently a nonsense. I'd be interested to know how many incidents of unrest were attributed to racism vs breastfeeding in visiting rooms. I'd bet that preventing racist abuse warrants higher levels of security.

Legally: The law also protects nursing mothers. If a prison treated a visitor differently due to their gender, sexuality, race or ability, I wonder if they would be breaking the law which prevents such discrimination. Even if it was to minimise bad behaviour in inmates. Even if it was for the visitors' own good. If there is a defence that discrimination is allowed in the public safety then I think a prison would still have to demonstrate that they discriminated on the reasonable evidence that nursing mothers posed a greater risk than any other group, since no exclusion was needed for other groups. This is not credible.

Ethically: Nursing mothers need and have a right to the same freedoms as everyone else. Breastfeeding is not an act that can or should be stopped by others. If we protect the freedoms of other groups, we have to protect the freedoms of nursing mothers.

I'm so weary of hearing of mothers being told "you can't do that here" in offices, cafes, libraries and so on. The truth is that they can. The law is there to protect them, but public opinion just hasn't caught up with the idea that a mother breastfeeding her baby is never inappropriate, never needs to be stopped, or made more 'discreet', or moved elsewhere. The message needs to get through. Each time someone fails to protect the nursing mother in general, I feel more vulnerable as a result.

Can I ask a couple of questions?

1. Are visiting women also advised to cover up, not show cleavage etc?

1. If some of the men are really likely to be that sex starved and unable to control their impulses (it is my understanding that this is a big rape myth - rape is about power, not sex - but that's an aside) that a flash of nipple or cleavage could cause them to launch themselves across the room and attack a woman, what the hell happens when these men are let out?

It's a really interesting thread and I think that as VLC has said quite a few times, the problem is that BFing appears to be singled out from all the other potential things which may cause an in-mate to kick off (a paed seeing a child/a racist seeing a coloured person/etc etc).

I genuinely don't understand why and I agree with VLC that it's representative of our society, rather than it being a Really Special Case (over an above, say, racism). Meaning, if they can deal with the problems associated with racism, they MUST be able to deal with potential problems to do with BFing.

Now, if it REALLY is the case that the mum and baby is at SO much risk of physical injury (given that the OP can choose to ignore verbal abuse) then they should be finding a solution, and maybe a separate room would be the best answer. If that costs more, well so be it. There would be an outcry if this was the only solution to a group of inmates being manic racists who were likely to attack a black person coming to visit, and it was denied.

Alternatively an extended visiting time would be acceptable, too, I'm sure, if the OP wasn't working around train times or something.

Ultimately, if the prison system is flouting our country's laws, Gods help us.

What happened in the end OP?

I understand everyone's view here on the link of breast feeding as a sexual act, it of course isn't in the community but we are talking about a male prison. I have worked in male prisons for years and normal rules don't count. The safety of visitors will be the primary concern, the management of prisoners a very close second. You will want to feed your baby but you don't know who all the other prisoners in the visit area are, what they are in for and what their particular security management is. The prison cannot possibly cater for every single visitor needs, they must have general rules to keep everyone safe.

Are you able to express as a compromise?

Prisons have great staff working in visitor centres who will be able to give you better advise on the particular prison you are visiting, call the main switchboard and ask for the visitor centre. They may also have someone from ADFAM that can advise.

I hope you find a solution that works for you so you can see your brother and keep your baby content.