Breastfeeding in prison

[prisonvisitor]

I'm off to visit my brother in prison (HMP Stocken) on Sunday. This will be the first time I have been with my 7 week old ebf dd.

Now I'm not allowed to take the pushchair/carseat/blanket in with me so I'm guessing she'll wake up as soon as I pick her up.

The prison website says you can bottle feed in the visiting room but not breast feed and if I wish to do so I can go to a private room. So I'll be doing a 4 hour round trip to spend 2 hours with my brother probably to spend half of it feeding in a private room!!

Can they refuse to let me bf in the room if I'm comfortable with it? I am very discrete when I feed but I'm guessing one of the many prison officers will notice if they're doing their jobs properly!!

To those asking if bare arms or legs are allowed. I have a friend who works in a cat c. There are some serious sexual offenders there waiting to be shifted to another prison. She, and her colleagues are told to dress modestly, with no cleavage and no bare legs on show. It's common sense. I think there are people on here desperate to cry discrimination. You are really really missing the point. She's allowed to breastfeed on the premises. She's just not allowed to breastfeed in the room full of offenders.

Oh dear - don't get stressed about it! Just take the day as it comes, feed your baby unless you feel otherwise on the day. As you said - they probably won't even notice.

Have you got a sling OP? You could put the baby in the sling and feed, I doubt anyone would even realise you are breastfeeding :)

Actually thinking about it you're probably not allowed slings inside the room are you!

"I think there are people on here desperate to cry discrimination."

Whilst being discriminated against. Shocker.

I'm not sure that a visitors room in prison is a public place.
a ?public place? can be taken to mean any place (whether indoors or outdoors) to which the public have access, whether by right, by explicit or implied permission, on payment, or otherwise. however, case law has specified that this excludes places to which a member of the public has access only by invitation. I would perceive a prison visitors room to fall into the latter category.

"This is to do with people confusing breastfeeding with something sexual".

If the prison contains sex offenders, then yup that's spot on - it's a place where proven sexual deviants are found.

I think it is worth asking why this ban is in place. If they faff around, it is probably unlawful and you should make a complaint in the hope of getting it remedied asap - and certainly in time for any future visits you may make. If the response is based on experience of behaviour in visiting rooms, then it would be unwise to challenge it. Either way, don't make a fuss on the day or you may find yourself slung out.

However HMP are providing a service, are they not? If so,they are bound by the equality act.

If a sexual deviant was excited by, say, redheaded women, it wouldn't enable the prison service to exclude them "for their own safety". You don't get to discriminate against one section of society because deviants have warped ideas about them.

The point is, that almost certainly nothing AT ALL will be able to be seen anyway, and just in case, if the OP wears something to pull round her baby's head, nothing can possibly be seen. This isn't a nosy 8 months old likely to yank his mother's top up and spray milk across the table. 8 month old babies can be distracted with something else (usually, well enough). 7 week olds need milk and they need it NOW. OP doesn't want to spend 1/2 her precious visiting time in another room. Presumably they can't provide you with a room that your BIL can also go in could they? That would solve the problem???

I would say the rule not to breastfeed in the visitors room is there for a reason. It is more than likely to protect the breastfeeder- I doubt the prison service would discriminate unless they felt they where protecting the visitor or the prisoner. Prisons are tough places and we would be naive to think that every rule within their walls hadnt been carefully considered. I know and you know it's not a sexual act but I'm afraid it is not the same as banning redheaded women as it involves parts of the body that are considered sexual. As a breastfeeder myself I had 2 (pathetic!) men heckle me- doesn't matter that I was feeding they still focussed on shouting about my 'lovely pair' and asked me to 'get em out properly!' so there were clearly sexual undertones. My point is that it may only take one inmate to see past the feeding and make the feeder feel uncomfortable (or worse!) and I'm sure that is what they are trying to avoid!

Not sure how it works but can you ask to feed in a private room before you go in the visitors room -that way you should get your full 2 hours.

I appreciate the sentiment but it is misplaced. The OP is not asking for protection from being made to feel uncomfortable. In fact, the discriminatory visiting rule "one rule for bottle feeders, another for breastfeeders" itself is the cause of the discomfort at the moment.

The same equality act protects the rights of ethnic groups and people with disabilities. There will no doubt be racists and bigots in prison, but no-one would consider it appropriate to suggest black or disabled people use private rooms to avoid stirring up the bigots? The appropriate response is not to abuse the rights of visitors or treat them differently, but instead to let them visit unimpeded and to quash any inappropriate behaviour from inmates.

OP, could we have an update, please? I only just read this thread and it has very interesting implications.

(am also amazed that RockOnMrs thinks she isn't confused, but hey.)

yes....i was lurking and would be really interested to know if you found any thing else out from the prison and (if you don't mind) what you decidede to do.

I would imagine that breastfeeding would not be allowed within the room where you are visiting prisoners.

Female staff in prisons are expected to dress modestly primarily for their own safety. I was expected to be covered up. Arms and legs are not the same as cleavage and breasts I'm afraid, not when it comes to a male prison that's for sure.

Although you can breastfeed modestly and perhaps without showing anything, there is a risk of breasts being visible.

It is not whether breast feeding is a sexual thing but whether the sight of a breast is sexual - and to many of these men yes, they are. And by potentially exposing yourself you put yourself at risk - and because of proximity your baby is then put at risk.

Not all the men in the prison are going to be nice men.

Cat C means all manner of things. Cat C is not just low risk prisoners. Some of these men will be inside for serious offences.

Look at it as a health and safety issue - is it a risk you are willing to take?

So people are saying that there is a risk of this mum and/or her baby being attacked by inmates?

In which case to ensure they they comply with the law, the prison needs to make sure she's protected. In the same way that if they felt that there was a risk, to, say, a black visitor because they had very violent racists in the prison who are likely to attack a black visitor, they'd need to give them protection - not to tell them to hide their black-ness, which is essentially what is being done here.

So maybe given the circumstances they need to allow her to visit her BIL in a separate room away from the visiting room?

Would love an update, OP.

Exactly, organiccarrotcake.

Hulababy, how can you rationalise your view in light of what we are saying?

Black person; rights protected by law. Has the right to visit in prison and not be harassed. Any attempt to ask the black person to be discreet or visit privately would be an abuse of the black person's rights, and is illegal discrimination.

Disabled person; rights protected by law. Has the right to visit in prison and not be harassed. Any attempt to ask the disabled person to be discreet or visit privately would be an abuse of their rights, and is illegal discrimination.

Nursing woman; rights protected by law. Has the right to visit in prison and not be harassed. Any attempt to ask the nursing woman to be discreet or visit privately would be an abuse of their rights, and is illegal discrimination.

Nothing is EVER going to change unless we change it!

verylittlecarrot - I do see it as being a bit different though.

And tbh I am just talking of personal experience of being in a prison environment. The comments I recieved whilst dressed very modestly day to day were crude enough and sometimes verging on crossing the line when it came to no contact issues, so there is no way on earth I would want to risk exposing a breast in such an environment.

Yes, the men should not be making comments. They should not see a breast exposed so a baby can breastfeed as being a sexual object for them to leer at.

BUT reality is, in that environment, there will be some who do see a flash of flesh, esp a breast, as something sexual.

It is a male prison. The environment is very vey unlike many other environments you come across in daily life.

It may be a risk some are happy to take. I don't think I would.

I can understand why the prison officers supervising would not really want to risk it either.

The prison DO need to make sure the woman is protected. They easiest way to achieve this is to have no breastfeeding. the easiest and least costly option.

They could have private visiting rooms, but they need additional staffing which costs more money.

They could say no eating at all in visiting rooms. But then that rules out all options.

Or they could say no babies, but again that makes life ahrder for many more people and especially so on prisoners who are fathers to newborns and babies.

They could have additional staff supervising visits so that an officer could be stationed near the nursing mother - again though, costly and would the mum want an officer stood over her throughout the time she nurses?

Obviously if some prison did kick off, comment, attempt to assualt they'd be dealt with - just as they would be if done towards any other visitor. But by then it may be too late - and where a baby is concerned - it's a big chance to take.

I completely agree that mothers should be able to feed their babies as and how they like on the whole. But they are some - albeit very very few - environments where I would say it may not be ideal to be breastfeeding. suspect a male prison is one such place.

But your arguments also apply to black and disabled people, in fact anyone who a bigoted prisoner might like to use as an excuse to kick off.

So why apply this "We're treating you differently but it's for your own good" rule so selectively? Either the prison is able to protect all it's visitors or it isn't. It isn't credible that nursing mothers are the most likely group to result in a kick off. In fact it's laughable.

I think the truth is just that nursing mothers are easy targets because people often don't take their rights as seriously as they should. And sadly, the belief that we should be hidden away is practically institutionalised in the UK.

Why anyone would want to bf in a room full of prisoners is beyond me. I understand people can bottle feed but the difference is that its breasts and we can throw our arms up and cry foul all we like. Breasts are ALSO sexual (when not breastfeeding) and prisoners are not going to look and say "aw isnt that sweet". These are offenders! People who are clearly not the "norm" in society and dont feel the need to conform.

The OP would feel terrible if the prisoners verbally abused her or if she was made to feel violated in any way (rightfully). These are prisoners and are NOT normal society and "normal" rules cannot be applied.

Why? For the same reason someone would bottle feed in a room full of prisoners.

Because the baby needs feeding.

So what "normal" rules apply to other groups that might find themselves verbally abused by prisoners? I'm dying to hear. And yet those people on this thread who want to "protect" nursing mothers for their own good (No thanks, I'm fine).

Don't you feel other groups need the same protection? Are they somehow safer? How so?

Sorry, that should have read

"And yet those people on this thread who want to "protect" nursing mothers for their own good (No thanks, I'm fine) are not suggesting the same rules for other at risk groups!"

It may be that there are sexual preditors or men that have been jailed for rape sexual assault etc. It may be that a slight flash even if brief and discreet could cause sexually deprived men to become over excited and kick off??

For the same reason you wouldnt let a child run naked in front of a room full of paedophiles. I understand a little girl couldnt protect herself but a woman can be equally violated. Its not the same being "sexually" violated as it is discriminated against.