Breastfed babies are better behaved says study

[crikeybadger]

Link here if you are interested.

I fully agree with you Sunflower.

sunflower - always interesting to get a 'real researcher' look at something like this.

In the West, it is not possible to say what difference ff/bf would make to any individual baby - we don't get the deaths from untreated illnesses of the developing world, and even quite serious diarrhoea, ear infections and chest infections (which are more common in ff babies - see previous Millennium cohort studies) are quickly dealt with, without long-term effects. No one needs to feel 'bad' on health grounds because their individual baby was not bf or not bf for long.

In public health terms, it's a different matter. That is the bigger picture.

In individual terms, though, there are emotional effects. Women who stop bf earlier than they wanted to recognise they have missed a potentially rewarding experience - some are sanguine about this, and accept that life has other wonderful things to share. But some are not, and take quite a while to overcome their sadness and disappointment - they may label it 'guilt' and blame themselves, and then they sometimes move on to blame breastfeeding supporters for 'making' them want to breastfeed in the first place.

They also get angry about studies like this - or, usually, news reports of studies like this and see them as a stick to beat ff mothers with. Some persist in insisting that there is no difference (or not much) between bf and ff and it therefore does not matter how babies are fed. So they will pick at a perfectly respectable, well-conducted study like this and say it is 'flawed' or 'rubbish' or whatever.

Did you not get the fact I agreed with sunflower's assessment, rollit?

Surely you are not suggesting I am wrong in stating that some (not all, and not as you say 'anyone') who stop bf before they planned to do so (tip: don't use the word 'failure' here) have an emotional reaction to this? And that some (not all, and not 'anyone') go on to say it does not matter how babies are fed?

Do you not read the sometimes upset and upsetting posts on mumsnet from people who stopped bf and who feel emotional about it?

Perhaps you think they should just stop moaning on?

Thanks Tictok for stating that FF in the west doesn't present the health concerns it certainly does elsewhere. Very balanced.

Breast is normal. As some will know I had an emotional time failing to establish BF with DD post vontouse. Will someone please let MW and bf councillors know how bad a babies head can hurt and slamming them onto a breast and making them scared of it doesn't help!! Anyway an aside...

Breast is normal and offers advantages over FF - too many decent studies to contradict this and yes, those benefits are less in the west due to healthcare.

Re formula babies not be held as often as fed less leading to this difference in behaviours as reported in the study... I have wanted to go up and shout at mums bottle feeding (as I did) but with babies facing away from them and texting/chatting anything but interacting with baby. I never once allowed my DD to hold her own bottle or feed facing away from me until she was on a cup and sometimes chose to (especially if the pictures in the book were good!!!).

A lovely GP I wept on was clear - the majority of the gain from breast feeding is not the milk (although clearly some is), it is having a Mummy who holds, cuddles and nurtures her baby.

Perhaps if we supported FF mums they could learn they need to look into baby's eyes, stroke their cheeks, still do skin to skin etc. It doesn't come naturally to all Mums but there is no need to have less contact with your baby.

But please, a plea to those who label my DD a "chemical" baby or "articfically fed", I know the facts but it bloody well hurts to hear this, it really does, it keeps smashing me in the face how I failed her. You all say "face the truth, we don't have to pander to your feelings" but please do show some humanity. Not all FF mums do so easily. And without tears.

Katiebeau - breastfeeding counsellors are usually hands off. They should not be grabbing and pushing :(

katiebeau But please, a plea to those who label my DD a "chemical" baby or "articfically fed", I know the facts but it bloody well hurts to hear this, it really does, it keeps smashing me in the face how I failed her. You all say "face the truth, we don't have to pander to your feelings" but please do show some humanity. Not all FF mums do so easily. And without tears.

Hear Hear.

tiktok tip: don't use the word 'failure' here thank you for saying this

Tiktok I've read enough of your posts to recognise that you know a lot more about it than I do, but studies like that carried out by Sven Carlsen in Norway (I know it's contentious, it's just an example) and Joan Wolf's work suggest that not everyone does agree wholesale. I'm not trying to open a debate on the subject as I'm not speaking from a position of experience, it was just an observation.

That said, I've always been of the view that breast is preferable if it is possible and if both mum and baby are happy. And that's surely the key here - if it's just not working for whatever reason then mums need to be supported in their decision - in my case, after weeks of 'perfect' breastfeeding (great latch, no cracks, no infections, baby gaining weight) it all went horribly wrong - she just started fussing, wouldn't feed and her weight gain dropped. I tried everything; went to the GP, addressed dietary causes, saw a breast feeding counsellor (who said she had no idea what the issue was, not all that helpful) nothing worked. I ended up expressing and feeding by bottle (no problems, so it wasn't the milk I don't think), but my supply has dwindled so I've had to make the switch. Not what I wanted to do, but it would have been so much easier if the HV and BF counsellor had listened to my reasons and been supportive, rather than just trotting out "breast is breast" like automatons. I have been made to feel like a terrible mother, when actually I've been killing myself trying to make it work. Baby is now on formula and back to her happy self, gaining weight again. Far better to feed well and have nice, happy times with me than the stressful fight that was feeding before, that can't be good for mother or baby. She is certainly not loved any less or cuddled any less, in fact I'm enjoying having eye contact and smiles during feeds!

One thing I would note is that, while breastfeeding was going ok, I would admit to being a bit smug and quietly judgmental about formula babies. Then it happened to me and I regret my previous attitude. Those who are lucky enough to have had no problems can't understand the dreadful guilt that you feel when you stop (even if you know it's the right thing) and shouldn't point fingers, you never know what is round the corner.

Finally, I wonder if more people would stick with it (where possible) if they had a more realistic idea of what breastfeeding involves. With my first baby I expected it to come naturally and be easy - wrong! even when you don't have any serious issues, it is hard work establishing your supply, understanding how your body works and settling into a pattern and I know several people who stopped because they honestly thought they didn't have enough milk/were doing it all wrong etc, when actually they probably had unrealistic expectations to start with. Breastfeeding is a skill like any other and if there was a bit less judging and preaching and a bit more support and honesty about the process (let's face it, it's a full time job and, while very rewarding, can also be exhausting), people could get past the tough first few weeks and our BF rates might improve. There are some great HVs and BF counsellors out there, but the ones I came across had very little real knowledge and just told me "breast is best" repeatedly until I went away, what a shame.

Katiebeau you raise a good point which is that, where mums have decided to formula feed, surely health visitors can still assist in terms of identifying ways to bridge any perceived emotional gaps, i.e. by teaching FF mums how to bond with their baby while feeding. That's the point I was trying to make above, FF mums and their babies are just as deserving of support and advice as BF mums and babies, but at the moment we are discarded and left to our own devices. I apparently can't go to the mother's group I have been attending any more because it's for breastfeeding mothers only, how delightful.........

Thank you for a very honest post - I know exactly how you feel, it's rubbish but you just need to put it behind you and concentrate on enjoying your little one.

I'll shut up now

LadyLex, Wolf not a scientist and she would have something to say to you for putting her with the 'scientific community', I think. Carlsen's paper did not dispute bf was related to better health outcomes - he just said the better health outcomes were to do with the endocrinological state of mothers in pregnancy, and those mothers were more likely to bf (way out on a limb, not least because his research was done in Norway where more than 95 per cent of women bf). You can see discussion here : bengoldacre.posterous.com/breastfeeding-nonsense-in-the-media-where-did.

You had a crap time, no doubt about it :(

But it's totally incorrect to say scientific community can't make up its mind about this.

Ciccolina I think you're right to question who is funding the study, but here's a question: who profits from bf? no-one but the mothers, as far as I can see, since it comes free, whereas we have to pay for formula!

Another question: who profits from ff? Certain multi-national corporations put great efforts into promoting ff even in countries where it is truly dangerous to babies, because it helps to make them rich!

tiktok (and one or two others as well) Thank you for sticking with this thread and keeping on talking rationally and calmly about this very emotional topic.

I'll tell you who else is profiting from ff: fathers. And that is marvelous. It meant that DH and I are interchangeable when it comes to childcare. And if this means that some companies make money, then so be it. Multinational companies will make money throughout my LO's life, that's the way of the world. I don't mind, I was not forced into anything and certainly felt more pressure from the breastfeeding than Dr Evil's formula factory.

Tiktok fair point, as I said, just pointing out that there are people out there who don't subscribe fully to the proposition that breast is always best. The Ben Goldacre blog was the other source I was thinking of, it at least demonstrates different points of view. Still, I think we're on more or less the same page, perhaps just coming at it from different viewpoints!

LadyLex - I too wasn't welcome at the HV lead mothers groups as a non-BFing Mum. I think this is where a lot of "rot" starts to set in..... you feel an outcast, so bad that no one wants to speak to you. My DH, family and NCT mates saved me, they really did. I didn't know about MN then. Tiktok thanks for balancing science, pro BF support without hurting us FF Mums, much appreciated.

thanks for the link a few pages back Tiktok
I was thinking of calling my old dept at uni to see if they have any studies going on relating to this as it is very interesting me.

Ladylex I think you are right about people having realistic expectations about what BF involves

I had my second dd in Jan this year and was advised when in hosp to go to the BF group
so I popped along and the breastfeeding counseller was there telling us that BF babies should feed every 3-4 hrs ( yeah right) and that bf babies dont get wind. ( at this point I put my hand up and said but my first dd always had wind after a feed) she told the class if your baby had wind after a feed you are doing it wrong!

at this point I left the 'class' . This was at St Thomas's London
I have yet to meet an EBF baby who goes 4hrly between feeds ( there may be lots out there but I have not met them yet)

But second time round I expected bleeding cracked nipples, I expected the afterpains and I expected to feed every 2 hrs during the day. So this time I dont feel ( most days) that it is too difficult. I am also cherishing the time a little more as this may be my last baby.

gateacre - no properly trained breastfeeding counsellor would say these daft things :( I think you have been in a class with someone calling themselves a breastfeeding counsellor who is a fraud, seriously. Sometimes people call themselves breastfeeding counsellors and they actually are not - it's not a legally protected term, unforch :(

ElsieR - I agree that ff can be convenient since it means both parents can be responsible for feeding, (and in fact other people can take part as well). But fathers don't actually profit financially from ff, whereas some companies do. I was just suggesting that a piece of research might be more trustworthy if it's not being funded by people with a financial interest in the outcome, and I can't think who has a financial interest in bf..
I must admit that when I was bf-ing I got a load of crap "advice" from all sides. It seems our society is very mixed-up about this whole subject.

Am still a little unsure about how you control for the fact that these children's behaviour is interpreted by the same mothers who were usually responsible for any breastfeeding decision and who may or may not feel comfortable with their own decision.

Ime one mother's "difficult" child is another mother's "perfectly normal" child: I'd have thought the interpretation of clinginess etc may at least partly depend on the mother's confidence in herself as a mother. In other words, exactly the kind of thing that may be dented by failure to breastfeed, or alternatively cause failure to breastfeed in the first place. My own experience was that the younger/less well educated parents in our toddler group were more prone to seeing their toddlers as difficult (quite regardless of what the children actually did) whereas the older/better informed took a more relaxed stance, and that this was a divide that to some extent cut right across breastfeeding -though there was no doubt that for some mums successful breastfeeding was another helpful confidence booster, and perhaps a sign of confidence in the first place.

I know for a fact that since I had my own competence as a mother questioned (in a totally different area), I have seen dc's behaviour differently, questioned it more, worried more that they are more difficult as their peers. I don't think the actual behaviour changed as much as my interpretation.

But I think the father involvement thing is a bit of a red herring: if that were the case, you would expect British fathers to be more hands on and involved in childcare than Scandinavian fathers (highest breastfeeding rates in the world). Not what I seem to see in RL anyway. There are plenty of ways of caring for a baby if you are really committed to doing it.

I've been really interested to read (especially at the beginning of this thread) that several people seem to believe that mothers cannot be relied on to evaluate their children's behaviour, and that mothers who have breastfed may be even less able to be objective about their children's behaviour. I can't see why this is a valid assumption - I would have thought mothers would be quite good at assessing their child's behaviour, given they spend a significant amount of time with the child, and have presumably done so over the past five years (whatever their working situation may have been). And I can't see a single reason why a breastfeeding mother would be less objective.

My own experience of breastfeeding showed me that a good many people thought it was incredibly important for one reason or another, and because of those people, I had the help I needed to succeed at something that would otherwise have been near-impossible for me and my son. When I add up the number of people who helped me establish breastfeeding, it comes to about 12. I remember feeling overwhelmed with grateful to every single one of them, as well as feeling incredibly lucky that I managed to get the support I did.

Because it had been such a struggle to establish, I continued to breastfeed exclusively when I went back to work (son was 5 months old, ebf until 8 months) by expressing twice a day, continuing with night feeds, and breastfeeding morning and night (as an aside, tiktok - am interested to read what you say about ebm as opposed to bm - I noticed significant differences in the levels of cream between the feed I expressed each morning at 11am - not so much; and the milk I expressed in the afternoon - less milk in general [around 7oz as opposed to 9oz], but a much higher proportion of cream - 3-4oz instead of 1). I continued to breastfeed my son throughout my second (unexpected) pregnancy as well, which began when he was 10 months old, I stopped breastfeeding him when my daughter was around four months old. All in all, I had around five years of continuous breastfeeding. I am about to have my third baby, and I am very anxious that I will not be able to breastfeed this time round. Why? Because I needed so much help the first time.

These studies are always interesting, but the frustration is that they always tend to lead to some groups feeling under attack. What seems needed is much more support for new mums. At the moment, so much seems down to luck.

Sorry for the endless post...

Argh! For grateful read gratitiude.

tiktok - I came to this thread to contribute as I was very interested in the subject; I am now signing off. I am not a new student at the Tavistock, I am several years into my psychotherapy training, which includes extensive infant and adult observation as well as lectures, tutorials, experimental groups and a clinical placement in an NHS psychiatric department. My personal opinion is that breastfeeding has nothing to do with attachment, however comforting that may be to believe. Positive attachment is achieved through a complex range of interactions between parents and their baby and as my own tutors have stated, (although maybe they need to check their theory as well!!) has nothing to do with breastfeeding or bottle feeding, not only because the same connections (physical, emotional) can be and are achieved through bottle feeding, but because BOTH "objects" in a baby's life, both mother and father (or perhaps grandparent if there are no parents, or whoever) are critical. I say good luck to all Mums, regardless of their choice to breast or bottle feed, and be reassured that whichever you choose, it has nothing to do with the truly important outcomes for your child, and almost certainly not their behaviour.

I don't think it at all odd that you might get widely varying ideas as to what kind of behaviour constitutes restlesness and clinginess- they are subjective categories. Reading MN has shown me how differently different mums interpret even such behaviour as pre-school fibbing or aggressiveness. Someone comes on a thread and wonders if they have raised a monster/there is anything wrong with their child, three posters assure the OP that the behaviour is perfectly normal and a fourth says it sounds completely odd and she would go spare if her own child ever did anything similar.

Yes, we know what our own toddler is like, but not necessarily what is normal/abnormal. Unless the criteria are very clearly defined by the questionnaire, there would be wide scope for interpretation.

Have just filled in a CAHMS questionnaire for my dd and found it hellishly difficult, and that's certainly not because I don't know spend enough time with my dd - it's about knowing what they would define as anxious behaviour.

mumtoband look, I have clearly offended you, and maybe it's better for you to do as you say and sign off, if my mild challenges to what you said are going to give you the hump like that!

I explained - attachment is of course a phenomenon influenced more by the interactions and responses and relationship factors you describe (as opposed to 'method' of feeding) and I have no argument with you there at all.

But it's a huge leap to say attachment has 'nothing' to do with bf and to ignore the literature that puts it very firmly in the same 'territory' , in psychodynamic, neurological, biochemical and evolutionary terms.

If you don't want to see this, perhaps because you yourself did not breastfeed, then I suggest you are not being open-minded about it.