Can BF be saved?

[gallicgirl]

Excuse me for the long whinge but I need to get some opinions in order to make some decisions regarding BF.

To start with I know BF is best and in my head I want to do it and before DD was born I had no intention of doing anything other than BF. I had lots of lovely daydreams about my contented baby breastfeeding and cuddled up in my arms. Obviously the reality has been quite different!

DD is now 3 weeks old. She fed almost immediately after birth and was at the breast for around an hour I think. She appeared to latch on and I got all the midwives who visited us in first few days to confirm that she had a good latch. However, I was never quite convinced that she retained that latch and she appeared to move the nipple forward in her mouth. I found that during the night she would be at the breast for hours but using it for comfort rather than feeding. CMWs were very supportive but I wasn't getting much sleep and after 6 days DD had lost 13% of birth weight so we were admitted to hospital. I was really upset at this as we'd had a home birth but I knew DD wasn't happy so recognised that the feeding needed to be sorted. the hospital made me express milk so we could see how much DD was getting and we topped up with formula as I couldn't express enough milk for all the feeds. At this point DD was still feeding from the breast as well but I think this decreased once we were back at home. We were asked to continue expressing and topping up with FF for a few days and CMW would check weight gain.

Although seeing how much milk DD was taking helped to reassure me, I think the hospital stay reinforced in my mind that I was incapable of feeding my daughter myself. In addition, I wasn't told how often to express so was only doing it a couple of times a day which probably wasn't enough. We'd been syringe feeding so DD could continue to BF but after a few days we realised this couldn't continue - it took too much time, DD was getting lazy about sucking when I put her to breast and we were both getting a bit stressed at feeding time - so we started to use bottles.

To add to the problem, DD got thrush a few days after we came home. She and I are both being treated for this and it's now clearing up but for a couple of days DD wouldn't go on the breast at all.

DD is now gaining weight nicely and is happy and content. I am expressing when I can and also putting DD to breast before I feed her from bottle. She seems to fight this and will only latch on for a few minutes so although it might stimulate supply, I don't think she is actually getting much milk.

I have now noticed that I can't express as much and to be honest, I don't want to. It's time consuming and I've come to dread the thought of expressing, even though I know the milk is beneficial.

So my question is basically do you think it is possible to return to exclusive BF, assuming I can maintain supply and get support to help with latching on?

If I thought it possible to BF full time, then I would persevere, but at this point, I am seriously considering stopping the expressing. It's a really emotional decision as I feel I've failed, albeit through no particular fault of my own. However, I have to consider whether my baby will benefit more from the extra time I have when not expressing/nursing.

What do you think?

Have you spoken to a breastfeeding counsellor? Sounds like you really need someone who knows what they're doing to see you in person.

And if you're still producing milk I'm sure it's possible to get back to breastfeeding - there was a thread on here recently by alfiemama called something like "can I get my milk back", where she got back to breastfeeding after several weeks bottlefeeding a baby older than yours.

'the hospital made me express milk so we could see how much DD was getting'

I have to say that this confuses me. Many women never manage to express much milk but their babies are happily EBF. My DS is 11 weeks and at the moment I can't express enough to give him a good feed from a bottle, but he is perfectly content at the breast. What I am saying is, how much you you can express is not necessarily an indicator of how much your DD is drinking.

If you are not confident with the latch, get help. Then if I were you, I would gradually reduce the number of bottles you are giving, and offer her the breast as much as possible (every time she cries, if at all possible) to help get your supply going again.

Totally get where you are coming from re: expressing. It's a PITA sometimes. I wouldn't bother with it - just keep offering the breast.

I spoke to an NCT counsellor on the phone about expressing.

I know I need to have someone sit with me for quite a while but it took a while for me to articulate what I wanted to know. I kind of had to sort out my feelings about it all first.

I'm a bit concerned about whether DD will return to breast when she seems so reluctant at the moment.

Yes it is absolutely possible but it would involve a reasonable amount of effort on your part. The best thing would be for you to devote 48 hours to doing nothing but feed and express. Get into bed with your DD, strip her to just a nappy and keep your top off and stay there, offering your breasts as often as she looks interested but with no pressure. Express in between times. And yes, contact a BF counsellor from one of the recognised organisations (LLL, NCT, BFN).

I feel for you because I was in a similar situation with DS1 and it is so hard. If you really want to do this then you can and your baby and you will benefit long term...but in the short term it will possiblyy be very hard on you.

Yes, it is completely possible to get back to exclusive breastfeeding. I have heard of women moving back to ebf much later than 3 weeks.

I second the recommendation to see a bf counsellor face to face. La Leche League and NCT both have good national coverage.

My DD had latch problems and fussed a lot and I assumed she was getting enough milk but it was a bfc who helped me to have confidence to stop expressing and drop the bottles.

We spent a lot of time half dressed and cuddled in bed. Skin to skin is very good for breastfeeding (I am sure you know this already). I found 2 things helped me immensely - getting in the bath with DD and having her feed there and biological nurturing.

I spent a lot time lying down, topless, watching tv and eating cake while DD fed. We got there and I am sure you can too.

I assumed my DD wasn't* getting enough milk

This link is better:

www.biologicalnurturing.com/video/bn3clip.html

Cocopops The hospital wanted to be sure DD was getting at least 50ml of milk every 3 hours. As much as they said they support BF, I don't think they were too concerned about how DD got 50ml of milk or what sort of milk it was. BF was treated very much as an adjunct to the feed. I could do it if I wanted but they wouldn't count it as part of the feeding-up process.

I would cut out the expressing and just offer breast but DD seriously won't latch on for more than a couple of minutes and is taking 120-150ml by bottle after that (same amount as if I don't offer breast) so I don't think she is taking milk from breast and therefore if I cut out expressing then supply will probably stop.

I know I need to see BF counsellor if I want to do this as DD isn't happy at breast at all.

Thanks sidewalk

I know all the right things to do but it's difficult to do them and still manage to eat, wash, clean bottles etc!

I'm sorry if I sound really negative - I really do appreciate your comments and I'm just working out in my head what to do.

I'll get in touch with counsellor then to see if she thinks DD is taking milk from breast and at least that's a starting point for action.

gallicgirl I had exactly the same dilemma with DS1 and yes, the practicalities of the stay in bed are not insignificant. I drafted in MIL for a couple of days to do all of that and cook/clean, which I was very lucky to be able to do.

Bottle feeding can make you a bit obsessed with mls and oz in my experience (not helped by the hospital's attitude). I used to feel that BF was useless as DS would still down his usual bottle afterwards, but I have since learned that they will often do this even after a good BF because with a bottle the milk practically pours down their neck with no effort. Your short term goal would be to get your DD happy to feed from you, and not worrying about mls. This is not as hard as it sounds - my DS would scream at the sight of my breasts due to rough handling by midwives...but he came round after lots of skin to skin. I used to give every bottle feed with my top off and in a position akin to BF.

Is there a BF group near you? I found LLL exceptional in my area, they were so good and went out of my way to support me in lots of ways.

yes I think it can but you need face to face help imo.

National Breastfeeding Helpline
0300 100 0212
National Childbirth Trust
0300 330 0771
Breastfeeding Network
0300 100 0210
La Leche League
0845 1202918
Association of Breastfeeding Mothers
08444 122949

Are they generally 9-5 Monday to Friday hours?

When I called NCT my call was transferred to someone who sounded like she was at home rather than a call centre.

I might try the local number the HV gave me

Yes they will all be answering the phone from home so don't be surprised by that. My LLL friends take calls at all times of the day and night by the sound of it. Try everyone you can until you get the help you need.

Hello gallicgirl,

I think everyone has offered brilliant advice on what you can do to make bfing work and it does sound as though it might be possible, with a lot of effort and perseverance.

I'm going to offer a slightly different perspective and I hope no one takes offence. Let me say right away that I am absolutely pro-bfing, and none of what I'm about to say should be taken as implying otherwise.

Thing is, you need to think about yourself, too. If you're feeling all emotional and negative about it, you need to weigh up whether befing really is best for you AND your baby. Making bfing work at all costs might prove very hard on you.

I had similar issues with my DD1. I persevered with expressing and allsorts (yes, the wretched syringe feeding, too - horrible) for 6 weeks, by which time I was a shaking, sleep-deprived WRECK. This was not good for me or for my baby but I was so depserate to make it work. DD2 has slipped into bfing without any problem at all and that's been lovely but it's also made me realise that bfing is only a tiny part of being a mum (it felt like the whole world with DD1). I'm sad it didn't work with DD1 and I still wonder whether I couldn't have tried harder. But at the same time I wish I'd stopped sooner and not put myself (and my whole family) through such anguish.

I really hope that helps. I think you're in a tough position and you have every sympathy from me.

I don't think any of the bf helplines have call centres - they're all trained volunteers who do shifts from home. The NCT volunteers are paid for their shifts though iirc. Best to call in day time hours rather than too late in the evening if possible.

@ExistentialistCat - you've hit the nail on the head really. I do need to make a head versus heart decision and you've all been really helpful. At least I have an idea that this might be possible so now I can decide whether I can make it happen and if that's the best thing for the whole family.

Yes, it's possible - I did it. You have to prioritise your health, your LOs health and your supply. For me that meant taking 2 days off bfing to just pump (every 3 hours during the day and every 4 hours at night) and get some rest.

I do sympathise - many things sound similar to what happened with my DS (almost 2 years ago!). I would say yes it's definitely possible, although it didn't work out for us. I vividly remember trying the 'babymoon' (spending lots of time in bed, skin to skin , just BF) and by then I had really lost the plot ! I would suggest that if you decide to stop, that you consider pumping once or twice a day, and during that time you can reflect on what you do long term. It's such an emotional time and so hard to make decisions like this. I really regretted letting my milk dry up (and later tried to relactate). I know that people have succeeded getting babies back to exclusive BF as late as 3 months (and prob later but don't know for anyone personally).

Has she been checked for tongue tie?

I would second the question about tongue tie. My problems with DS were almost identical. He was finally diagnosed with TT at 4 months old by which time we were almost fully bottle feeding.

I don't think so but will double-check. My nephew had one so I did ask the MW but she only had quick look. If DD does have tongue-tie, it's only mild.

A mild tongue tie can still cause problems with feeding though. Sometimes it's not obvious straight away either - my friend had 3 midwives, 2 hvs and a bfc check her DS for tongue tie and they all missed it. She was having horrendous problems with breastfeeding - eventually got a referral to a specialist miles away who felt for a tongue tie, (whereas everyone else had just looked) divided it, and she said he's a different baby now. She had to travel miles though and pay as he was a private doctor - not an option for everyone, sadly. It makes me so angry how tongue tie isn't taken seriously by the NHS when it's so simply treated and can cause so many problems.

It's the fact she's getting a good latch but then slipping off - classic tongue tie symptoms.

It can be inherited as well so if your nephew had one it's definitely a possibility.

Thanks - I will definitely follow up that one then.

She does the same thing with the bottle too sometimes - really fights it and makes a mouth like a fish gasping for air IYSWIM

and can I say thank you for the link to biological nurturing? Have been trying this approach and BF is going better. DD seems more relaxed and fights less.

:)

I have very painful wrist so that seems like a damn good excuse to give up the dreaded expressing too!