Would you complain about a poor birth/breast-feeding support experience in hospital. Any if not, why not?

[MummyBerryJuice]

In order not to hijack another poster's thread I've started this one following on from what AngryGnome revealed about her birth and breastfeeding experience in hospital.

I personally have no complaints about my experience but stories like hers really PISS me off. I hate the way caring, responsible grown women are made to feel like neglectful, irresponsible little girls by hcps who are supposed to support them, , especially when it clew to breasfeeding support.

Please come and share your stories, whether you complained and what type of response you received.

I feel passionately about enabling women and perhaps something can grow out of this!

Reading all these stories has been so shocking, and it is awful that so many of us have had met with such difficulties when learning to feed our babies.Thank you everyone who has shared - I know it isn't always easy to talk about things like this.

bluecollie thank you for posting your positive story here, to show what can be achieved when HCPs behave in a supportive way.

It seems that the baby friendly accreditation doesn't mean much in practice. My hospital is baby friendly, and certainly looks it - lots of posters and promo material, dedicated infant feeding specialists, but this was undermined by the attitudes of the majority of staff on the maternity ward.

To add something else positive, as I've said earlier I can't praise my community nursery nurse enough. My HV put me in touch with her, and since I have been home (nearly 8 weeks now) she has phoned me every week, come round to see me on the same day when I have called her with a problem, has never made me feel rushed when talking to her, or stupid for asking questions about feeding. She's arranged for me to have a baby massage teacher come to my home, which has been great. She has been friendly but professional from the start and she has provided fantastic support.

"It should be that you are lucky to get good support. It should be standard! Dammit! It is no good telling mums (and hcps) that 'Breast is best' and then not giving them the tools to succeed (or in the case of hcps: the tools to help properly!)"

Exactly. This has been playing heavily on my mind of late. I was one of the lucky ones, I received good support from the hospital & community MW and my lovely Dsis first time round. This meant that I had the confidence to refuse top ups when DS2 was admitted at 4 days having not fed properly since birth. It turned out he had a serious bowel condition but the first assumption was that I didn't have enough milk- I had to express to 'prove' that I could produce the goods . Had this been my first attempt, there's no way I could have coped with the pressure.

I too felt like I was been silly and lentil-weavery for insisting on bf. As soon as he was dx it was 'ooh aren't you marvellous for bf/ it's the best thing you can do for him etc etc.' Feck off.

I have friends living nearby under the care of the same team of MW whose bf support was shite btw. I can't believe it varies so much, it's just shocking.

There are clearly huge gaps in training which need addressing. I also think women need to be better advised ante-natally. Not 'You should bf' but 'Here's how to do it if you want'. The importance of good support in the first few days should be underlined so women don't feel silly or like a nuisance when asking for help. As though it's a selfish, naive thing to want to do! Tsk.

I really think this is a MASSIVE problem. It seriously undermines women at a time when we are at our most vulnerable. And I think a co-ordinated campaign is a very good idea.

Will reply properly later as one handed but:

• agree some places very shoddy
• I have been very lucky to have had an easy ride of bf, but not due to 'support' , It's just been fine
• the hospital I gave birth in (not thru choice but that's another thread) has opted out of the Baby Friendly scheme
• am training as a peer supporter at the mo, hearing some horror stories.
• am in process of applying to do nct bf diploma over next few yrs, hopefully can help.

Sorry for rubbish message, will be back!

Yikes, I'm so sad to read some of the stories on here. I'm 30 weeks with my first and have just had our ante natal class on breastfeeding.

I want to breastfeed my DS when he arrives, but must admit I'm terrified I'm going to be useless. there is a peer support group here and we met one of the trained volunteers the other day. They have weekly meet ups at the community centre that we can drop in to before the baby arrives, so it seems all the support is there for me after I get out of hospital, but most of the stories here seem to involve the hospitals.

Is there anything I can do to prepare myself for the worst when the time comes? Maybe this isn't the thread for this question though.

I totally understand that for some women, reliving the experience by complaining is too much to bear :( And there are others who worry they will have to meet the midwives who were so inept/unkind when they have another baby - isn't that awful they should be scared of 'reprisals'? :(

That makes it all the more important that people who can bear to complain, whose reaction is anger, disappointment and sadness rather than trauma or fear, actually do complain.

There comes a point where we need to take responsibility for insisting on good care - difficult to do when you are in the middle of the experience, I know, but if you have time to describe it on a website (which can't do anything about training or redressing poor care) then you have time to describe it to the maternity unit/PCT which can act upon it.

LisMcA- whilst you'll read lots of awful stories, don't forget that lots of women have absolutely no problems with breastfeeding. So don't be put off.

It sounds like you're doing every thing right in visiting a support group and know where to find help should you run in to trouble.

I'm just going to paste over a para from the ever wonderful tiktok from another recent thread. It talks about how to get bfing off to a good start ...

Breastfeeding can be very, very difficult, but it is not inherently so.

Often, the very early hours and days are totally messed up and made miserable. Most mothers are babies are best off being snuggled up together and just enabled to breastfeed, with no rush, no one grabbing baby and breast to shove 'em together. Calm, relaxed, patient....minimal interruptions from hospital staff and visitors...let mother and baby be alone together...continue that at home...ensure positioning is comfortable and effective for both of them...don't separate them and don't have expectations of doing anything other than cuddling/feeding.

LisMcA peer support is a great way of getting great cultural support. Have you thought of going before your baby comes? Then they'll know about you and you'll know them and feel more comfortable with them

Not everyone has trouble with breastfeeding either (I didn't but I had excellent support from both my mother and MIL who both breastfed). So I wouldn't worry too much before you have your baby. I think the best thing is for you to know who to tourn to for help if you need it.

And of course MN is here too

Lis, you'll pick up loads just hanging around the feeding boards here. I came to mumsnet when I'd been feeding DS1 for 10 months already and learned loads of stuff I wished I'd known about beforehand.

I also wish I'd used the bf helplines more when DS1 was tiny. They are brilliant, I would recommend having them on speed dial.

You may well have excellent support when your DS comes along. If not, you now know at least that there are other places to go.

Lisa it isn't always awful. Dd was sleepy for the first few days and a little reluctant, then I had pains in left nork for about first fortnight, but other than that I have found it easy and a pleasure. Dd is 6 mo now and still going strong, so much so that I hope to start training to be a counsellor in Sept.

Just a side comment - I was in an NCT group of 11 and the only 2 mums who exclusively breastfed for more than a few weeks had twins (ie lots of support). I really believe support is so important, paying lip-service about being baby-friendly or whatever just does not cut the mustard. Lis just take anything you're offered and good luck!

I had a mixed experience of bf support. I felt very undermined in hospital by the boob-grabbing nurses and MWs. My community midwife was lovely and helped a lot, but then went on holiday and subsequent midwives were very kind but gave me conflicting advice, and also made me worry inordinately about DD's weight. And I really did have one MW tell me that if I wanted DD's weight to go up I should only feed every 4 hours for 10 mins each side! If DH hadn't been present I'd have thought I imagined it.

The most horrible intervention I got was from the HV at 4 months. DD's weight gain slowed a bit (she dropped between centile lines but didn't cross them) and I was told in the middle of the clinic I was feeding her all wrong and had my boobs grabbed and man-handled. When I objected she said to DD 'Oh dear does Mummy not like that?' I thought 'Bloody hell you're the one who is meant to be an expert on child development and you are asking questions of a four month old you halfwit!'. I've managed not to see that particular HV since.

Complaining about poor care is hard although TikTok is right it is the only way things will improve. And obviously the fact that bf-ing is still fairly abnormal in our culture means that the expectations of parents and of HCPs can often be a bit off. The range of behaviours of bf babies is vast, if you only know a handful when your baby is born then you are likely to have a very limited idea of what to expect.

But I think a bigger problem is medical deference. I've just been an in-patient for a serious health problem totally unrelated to feeding and realised that despite the fact that I have a PhD, am a widely recognised expert in my field (a branch of healthcare law ironically!) and am a qualified lawyer as soon as a doctor starts talking to me I become ridiculously docile. If I find it hard to assert myself then it must be hard for a lot of other people too.

We need a culture in which women in particular feel more able to assert their needs when dealing with HCPs. Being assertive doesn't mean ignoring medical advice. It means being able to say 'I need a breastpump as a matter of urgency because I have to be able to pump milk whilst I am away from my daughter' or 'No I can't just stop breastfeeding overnight in order to take the drugs you prescribed. We need to work out a better treatment plan than that.' Or 'I feel breastfeeding is comfortable and DD seems satisfied and happy. Before you suggest changing anything to increase her weight can you tell me exactly what you think is wrong with the current picture and what you think your suggestions will achieve?'. None of these things are rude or difficult and yet when I needed to say them I stalled and panicked and said nothing.

Perhaps we also need to normalise not just feeding but asking for help. The help I received from an NCT breastfeeding counsellor was absolutely invaluable and just now I got a response from the BfN about the drugs I was taking which answered the question I asked and was both reassuring and practical (which means Wendy at the BfN is a darn sight more useful than the half dozen specialists I've seen in the last 48 hours). There is amazingly good help available for free for many of us (I realise access to BF counsellors is uneven) if we just ask. Of course this quality of help should be totally the standard within the NHS.

Normalising bf-ing is great but part of the message should be some difficulties are normal (and horrible) and that help is out there.

Veronica you are so right regarding medical deference. I'm a trained as a doctor and have found myself defering to nurses giving advice over the phone! It is only recently (after a serious scare with febrile convulsions) that I have started being REALLY assertive.

Perhaps it is a cultural thing too. We are often just too accepting.

Consensus seems to be less of the why you should bf, more of the how to. But proper, up to date, factually correct and non conflicting advice. I think this part would require a massive investment from the NHS in HCP training which probably isn't going to happen any time soon.

So maybe the focus for now needs to be on enabling women to ask for support, to actively encourage seeking it out even? More signposting towards the bf charities ante natally?

Bumping this as I've just seen it and think it's really important. Not sure of the mechanics of these things but I'd hope that something with an oficial Mumsnet tag could be communicated, especially given the availability of peer support and the current big society focus!

I especially second the naff tongue-tie management reported upthread. DS and I ended up back in hospital when he was 2 days old with serious weight loss, unresponsiveness etc and hospitalised for 3 days. He wasnt tube-fed because after 4 failed intubation attempts DS, DH and I were all in tears and I asked for plan B, which was formula feeding until I rallied enough to start round the clock expressing and bottle-feeding. Great day-day care from the ward staff throughout, couldnt fault them, but the entire thing could have been avoided if the antenatal pediatrician and MW checks had been less perfunctory 2 days earlier. It was only when I asked to see a breastfeeding advisor, 2 days after being admitted, that his tongue-tie was diagnosed, despite my having realised something was wrong with his latch and feeding within 6 hours of the birth and asking 3 midwives in hospital and 2 at home to check, and being told it was fine. It took until he was 3 weeks old to have it snipped - and then I had to get a written referral from BF clinic and turn up at my GPs in tears with terrible mastitis and bloody nipples to get referred. Neither of our local hospitals do the op for cost reasons, and the clinic at the hospital where we had it done asked us to fill in a record of progress afterwards to collate as evidence to ward off being closed in the savings round. I'm amazed that a 2 minute op costs more than mother and baby being hospitalised for 3 days plus all the tests and follow-up visits, and this has made me realise that I need to write to my local hospital to ask them to review tongue tie management. So I will!

What a terrible time you had Mojangles- well done though for deciding to write to your hospital about it.

The deference thing is interesting. I had premature rupture of membranes (waters broke early - PROM) for 48 hours and was told to go into hospital "for a check". When I got there I was told by a junior doctor that she was going to get a nurse to put me on the monitor, then she was going to come and give me a vaginal examination (VE). Now, the problem with PROM is infection and VEs introduce infection. If you have PROM, you avoid VEs. If you have a VE you're on the clock then for an induction.

Anyway, I asked why she wanted to give me a VE and she said that it was to check my waters had ruptured before they induced me. This was a total shock, as I'd not been told anything about induction (in fact I was dead against it unless there were signs of infection). I said that I wasn't planning on being induced, and at this point she got quite stroppy and said that she would have to get a senior doctor to come and explain things to me as it was their policy to induce after 48 hours of PROM.

Anyway, long story short, I had to stand up to the JD, the registrar and finally they brought in the big guns - the most senior consultant obst. Amazingly he was brilliant, and agreed that it was not necessary!

In the end, 5 days after PROM, I went into spontaneous labour and had a lovely, straightforward waterbirth. ONLY because I was firm and stood my ground (well, I should say WE as it was a team effort between me and DH). I didn't stand my ground by ignoring their advice as such, but by doing loads and loads of research, and by questioning (politely) everything that they said I "had" to do. I didn't defer to them, but we made decisions together.

Later on we got a terrible thrush infection and my GP's reaction was to tell me to "put him on the bottle" as "not every woman can breastfeed". I DID make a complaint about that, and other very poor advice I was given by that surgery WRT BFing (6 months down the line) and when they called me to discuss it I told them about a BFing course the local BFing team were running for GPs, and said that I wouldn't make a formal complaint if they sent them on that course. I need to chase that up!!!

This was my second child, and I was waaay more assertive this time round. I totally understand how tough it is when you're in such a vulnerable position. I now want another baby so I can "do it right"!!!

There were a few key moments during and after my delivery which caused me massive concern.

1. after labouring for 27 hours, my contractions were 60 seconds apart but I was still only 1cm dilated. I had had G&A, tens, and two shots of pethadine. After the second shot, I was practically comatose, only returning to consciousness with each excrutiating contraction. I was BEGGING for an epidural, but the bitchy unhelpful night duty MW told my husband, "it won't work if she doesn't relax"

2. After a 44 hour labour, and a 3hr 20min pushing stage with ventouse delivery (which cut my son's head open), I needed surgery after a 3rd degree tear. After the surgery, I was wheeled back to my delivery room only to find that they'd already put someone else in there!!! this was even though my bags were still next to the bed. I was summarily moved to a disused ward with trolley beds stacked there and left there for 4 hours until I was moved to post natal ward.

3. Hospitalised for 2 days post partem due to blood loss - tried very hard to breast feed, thought I was doing alright, but the MW kept coming in and threatening to feed him formula if he went longer than 4 hours between feeds. Considering the trauma he went through being born, he was just very tired and listless for those days, but I still felt under pressure to wake him and force feed him just to keep the MWs happy.

4. 13 weeks post partem, I had a terrible infection from the surgery. I had been to numerous appointments at the hospital and no-one took me seriously/helped me.

These are only 4 points in a catalogue of issues from the most emotionally scarring event of my life. I complained to the PALS, and was IMMEDIATELY (i.e. 5mins later) referred to the head of midwifery for the entire district. Not only did she personally treat my infection, but she also referred me for post-delivery follow up to discuss my treatment and get an explanation for why my delivery went the way it did.

I still wish, though, that I'd pushed harder and complained more as, 3 years later, I still don't really know what happened and why my son and I were left to go through that hell. They did say in hindsight that they should have done a CS, but I still don't really know why they didn't? Just wish I had more answers to help me get closure. It's a massive contributing factor towards why were aren't having any more DCs...

I didn't complain but I did give them some 'feedback' via their website. I didn't receive any acknowledgment and maybe a proper complaint would have been more effective.

DD was born at term but small with previously unsuspected IUGR. I was allowed to keep her with me but told her blood sugar would need monitoring. I fed her successfully after the birth and I asked specifically to be woken in the night to feed her and wasn't. Then they insisted on taking her blood sugar before I'd fed her and of course it was low.
They insisted this meant formula (bf would tire her!). She was cup fed formula which she vomited all up. Then I went to the toilet for 10 mins and came back to find they had taken my baby, inserted a feeding tube and given more formula. Again she vomited it all and wound up being taken to SCBU and put on a drip.
She didn't stop vomiting until I was able to express enough BM for her. At 6 mo when we tried to wean her we found out she had cows milk protein allergy and I always suspected this was the reason for all the problems.
There were 2 breast pumps between a whole ward specifically for ill babies (TCU). There was always a queue. They offered quite insistently to take your baby to the 'nursery' at night so as not to disturb other women and were clearly happier to ff the babies than support bf. I was looked upon as a freak for getting up in the night to express even though I knew that was what was needed for my supply.
I also witnessed lots of poor advice to others. A woman whose baby was jaundiced being harangued in her bed by literally 6 Drs and midwives at once standing over her with threats of dire consequences if she refused to give a bottle and another lady who couldn't speak English well in tears after getting 3 contradictory opinions on using breast shields within half an hour.

Thanks for bumping and adding to the thread.

I too had PROM but at 38wk5 and I was more than ready to deliver DS but never once was it discussed with me that a VE would necessitate probable induction/augmentation. I didn't challenge t because I to give birth ASAP.

Also when I asked to see my notes they refused to give them to me and I was told that I would have to submit a written request to PALS for them. Perhaps they were afraid to let me read them as they knew would understand? I don't know?

I do think this is really important and when I have some more time next week, I'll have a look at settn up an online/anonymous/MN complaints form

I have had a letter from the hospital about the issues I raised when DS was admitted.

They say as he had losr 11% of his weight and had a raised sodium level, this was a sign of dehydration and so it was imperative to get fluids into him asap (obviously, I agree). They say that as I said I didn't want to bottle feed:

'the most appropriate action was to feed by nasogastric tube, this was instigated because there was a need to reduce the sodium levels quickly and increase the hydration of DS. There are risks associated with cup feeding with babies who have raised sodium level because these babies can be drowsy and cup feeding is not something the children's unit advocate. I am sorry if this was not explained to you.'

WRT the missed tongue tie, the consultant paediatritian says 'as you have akcnowledged, tongue tie is a difficult diagnosis to make and indeed is often a subjective diagnosis. The most widely used scoring system for making a diagnosis (Hazelbaker scaore)...is the method used.' They go on to acknowledge they did not feel under his frenulum, and apologise that they were unable to daignose it and that they did not act on information I 'may have' provided re family history of tongue tie (there's nothing in the notes apparently about his older sister having TT too).

I am happy to get a response, and understand more why they felt cup feeding wasn't appropriate, but I would like the TT issue addressed more as I do feel this is a big issue in my area, not just at the hospital.

I still feel really sad about the whole episode. I feel like I let DS down and that I was negligent in allowing him to become dehydrated.

It's good they have responded but it still seems to me that they are trying to 'fob' you off with medical jargon rather than apologising and offering a way in which they could asses the mistakes made and prevent them from happening again.

Surely the point f complaining is to get closure for yourself but also to flag up mistakes that had been made to prevent others from having the same problems?

mummyberry They didn't tell me that either - I already knew, though, which is why I queried it. I think it's outrageous that they don't tell you . My Obst said that most women "want the baby out" but don't recognise the dangers of induction... well that's because you don't bloody well tell women what they are! Aarrgghh. He even said that the labouring uterus created the same pain levels whether induced or not - to which I said that may be so, but, the spontaneously labouring women produces endorphins which the induced woman doesn't, thus making the labour FEEL less painful, and given that pain is subjective, that's all that matters. He had to concede that point.

Not suprisingly, when I phoned a few days later to say that I was in labour and was coming in, the MWs all knew who I was .

WRT notes, you of course have the right to see them. There may be a procedure to follow (prob to ensure that only the patient in question sees their own notes) but you CAN see them. Personally, I just passed my time reading through them while I was in hospital.

Which is another one, girls. Your notes, left on the end of the bed, are YOUR notes. Read them while you're there - you have every right. They can be quite interesting. I picked up an error in them and made them change it . Aahh, they'll never let me back .

At our hospital they don't leave the notes at the end ofthe bed. They have them in the trolley at the nurses station. I know this because I'm a blooming doctor and have worked in the hospital.

What really pisses me off is that I didn't have the guts to insist and have been too busy too bother since he's been born.

Not good enough really.

mummyberry sorry, I guess I was teaching you to suck eggs then! :)