Going crazy!

[flipper99]

I'm sure this will sound really stupid but I'm having real difficulty working out whether my 4 week DS is hungry or not!

He was quite jaundiced to start with and since the beginning has always fallen asleep - or just sucked at me like a dummy - during his feeds. I can now tell when he's swallowing etc and feeding efficiently but I constantly have to remind him and have been advised by midwives to switch sides throughout the feed and do breast compression. He doesn't just come off or fall asleep at the end of a feed as I was led to believe breastfed babies do when they're full!

Basically I make sure he's been at the breast being as efficient as possible for 30-45 minutes but every time I take him off (from his comfort sucking) he fusses about and does all the "hungry faces" - like sticking out his tongue etc. Sometimes I or DH can give him a cuddle and seem to settle him - or distract him out of it! - and then he may or may not settle for a couple of hours. But how do I know if when he cries after an hour or so whether he's hungry?

We've topped him up with expressed milk or formula quite a few times but he'll just suck and suck on a finger whether or not we are squirting milk down the side from a syringe, so that is no help in working it out. He sometimes settles with a dummy which I'm finidng useful but worried it's making his latch worse too..... arrgh it seems like such a simple decision to make - is he hungry? - but I spend every waking minute wondering this and it's driving me crazy!

Why do you take him off when he's comfort sucking? If you let him stay on for as long as he wants would he come off himself eventually?

At 4 weeks I would just feed ds at every squeak to be honest, all they really want is milk or comfort at that age!

If I let him stay on for as long as he wants he would be there for over an hour, day or night, and I'd never sleep let alone do anything else! The midwives also told me not to let him suck for more than 45 minutes as he would use up more energy than he'd be getting from the milk.

flipper99 I wouldn't always take what the MW say about bfing as gospel. I've never heard of that one before. My DS sucked virtually all day and night and he put on lots of weight very quickly.

I'd ask the MW for the evidence if I were you.

How is his weight, how often does he feed? Was he premature or had a lot of weight loss at the start - is that why he needs to conserve energy?

Those fluttery sucks at the end of a feed can be them getting fattier milk apparently, and I often found ds would get a second let down during hour long feeds.

He was 8lb 11oz at birth - so a good size - and didn't lose a lot but took until 3.5 weeks to regain his birth weight (partly I think because I had to go back into hospital with a kidney infection). Over the last fortnight or so weight gain has been better but haven't had him weighed since Mon. Currently with the 30-45 min feeds and some top ups he feeds pretty much to a 3-4 hr routine (and sleeps quite well between them at nighttime)- so I'm reluctant to go to more frequent feeds unless necessary as I don't want him to turn into a "snacker"!

Breastfed babies feed often though, and 3-4 hourly is pretty infrequent for a 4 week old. You say you're worried about him being hungry and he took a while to regain his birthweight, but you don't want to feed him for too long or too often - that seems a bit counter-intuitive to me!

Honestly, I would just feed him on demand - it's best for your baby and the best way to establish your supply.

Yes, I'm puzzled, too, MoonUnit.

flipper, what's wrong with feeding a baby of this age frequently? Why try to artificially feed him to a routine? What's wrong with being 4 weeks old and feeding as and when you want to - feeding is more than getting milk in, and your baby may need comfort, contact and soothing.

Just feed him :)

30-45 mins may not be enough for him every time - and there is no reason for giving him ebm or formula or a dummy when you have the milk sitting there in your breasts!

It is rubbish to say he cannot stay on for longer than 45 mins or he will use up too much energy - not now. (Maybe true for a tiny prem).

"If I let him stay on for as long as he wants he would be there for over an hour, day or night, and I'd never sleep let alone do anything else! " - what else is more important than feeding a four week old? Feeds lasting an hour are normal - and of course you would sleep :) And you'd be able to do other things. For s start there'd be far less messing about with ebm, formula, jiggling, dummies, giving fingers to suck....think of all that time saved.

basically, I think I am saying, 'It's fine to feed him as often as he tells you.'

:)

All babies are different and feeding him when he is hungry won't turn him into a snacker. Its natures way of making sure he grows .

Like Moon, I thin that feeding every 3 to 4 hours for a 4 week old isn't much, especially if you are concerned about him being hungry or his weight.

If it was me, I'd be feeding him every 2 hours during the day, plus more if he wanted it, at the moment, and demand feeding at night. I'd be doing that until I was content with his feeding.

Is there a Bfing support group you could go to flipper or a local Bfing Counsellor you could talk to about your concerns?

x-posted with tiktok.

DS BF for over an hour, EVERY TIME when he was small. It's normal. That's what they do. I would often be found wailing myself but he can't be hungry, I only just fed him!...ummm, yes he was....takes a lot of getting used to! Yes it might mean very very interrupted sleep, but not for long in the broad scheme of things.

If he's going hours between feeds he WILL be hungry! Timing the feeds/distance between them will probably not be helpful right now-taking your guidance from him is likely to be much more helpful, as weird as that may seem!

"On demand" means feeding him when he "demands" it (cries, roots, sucks hands, snuffles at you) and will ensure you are both in sync with each other.

DS2 is 8wks and constant feeding has been a common theme here! I'm almost always cluster feeding from 7pm - 11pm and that will include just sitting with him constantly at one boob for AGES. He'll get drowsy and start comfort sucking but the minute he falls off, he'll look for more and so goes over to the other side and off we go again!

I couldn't tell you how often he goes between feeds because it completely varies day to day, as do his sleep patterns. His frequent feeds, however, have boosted my supply and he slept 8hrs last night.

Take everyone's advice here and just feed him when he looks for it, for as long as he wants it. If this is your first baby enjoy the freedom to put your feet up and relax while he's doing it - I have a 2yr old yanking at me all the time!

How are you feeling today flipper?

Ok, this is just completely different advice from everything the midwives/breastfeeding specialists/books have told me! I was told to feed him 4 hrly when we went home from hospital, and I've also read (but am not following) the baby whisperer book which implies there is a "feed time" followed by a period when he doesn't feed... I was just trying to get into a good routine :(

The thing is that if I can persuade him to stay awake at the boob (because otherwise he really wouldn't do anything past the first 5 minutes) he will often sleep quite peacefully for several hours - which I was taking to mean that he couldn't be hungry - ? But he goes through a period immediately after a feed where he will do the tongue sticking out things AND yawning - it's like he seems as confused as I am about what he wants to do next. Sometimes I'll then be sure he's hungry and feed him more (I promise I don't deliberately leave him hungry) and sometimes I'll just rock him a bit and he'll settle and then go off to sleep - it's just really difficult to tell at the time which way he's going to go.

I have been feeding him more often today (2-3 hourly) although sometimes I have to wake him up to do that.

I feel like a bad selfish mum now for not having let him suck at me all the time - I thought it was best for him to feed properly and get a full tummy and then have a good sleep afterwards. It's not that I want to have loads of time to myself to paint my nails or whatever - just some eating, sleeping and occasionally leaving the house around feed times!

Don't feel bad - there is a massive difference between a baby feeding and just sucking on you. You are doing the right thing by trying not to get into bad habits and not being a bad mother.

That said if he's still rooting after 35-40 mins he probably is still hungry and I would just go with it and carry on feeding. Try not to top up with formula if you can help it as you want your supply to increase with his needs.

Four hourly is fine if he is asleep I wouldn't wake him up to feed. I think it's fine for a baby of that age to go about 5 hours at night between feeds, but they then probably need to feed more regularly in the day.

He will get quicker at feeding as he get older.

And honestly, there is nothing wrong with a four hour routine at 4 weeks. All the premature babies I know were put onto a 4 hour routine by the time they came home from hospital (usually about a week before their due date).

you have had terrible advice in real life

the baby whisperer is also NOTORIOUS for it's terrible BF advice, which is not grounded in good evidence at all! I speak from experience with it.

you are NOT a bad selfish Mum, you have been doing your best with the so called expert advice you were given! It's early days.

don't be :(

I feel into the same kind of trap. MWs had a go at me for stroking DD while she was feeding :(

Most people in RL are old school and the baby whisperer book was form early 90's I believe so nearly 20 years ago. That book did have a way of implying if you didn't do this, your a neurotic selfish stupid mum.

Well now, just move it, sod routines and do what you like. DH is there for housework, you're there to look after baby.

flipper, you have just been trying to do your best for your baby :(

But the Baby Whisperer is not good on breastfeeding at all - check the archives here on mumsnet.

Anyone, or any book, that tells you to feed four hourly is 100 per cent wrong - for most babies this is nowhere near enough, and all babies need to be fed responsively not according to the clock. Occasionally you get a baby who fits into a 4 hrly pattern anyway, but they are rare.

Babies who show signs of needing to continue feeding after 35-45 mins need to continue feeding :)

You and your baby will take a while to get your communication right every time - not a problem. It will get easier.

Agree the Baby Whisperer book is rubbish for breastfeeding! I doubt she breastfed her own DC.

In the early days feeding on demand is the easiest thing to do imo. Ignore the clock, feed your baby whenever he asks and enjoy all the nice snuggly time together. In a few short months feeds will be 5 minutes each side with a wriggly baby trying to look round the room and you'll miss those hours cuddled up on the sofa

I like a bit of routine in my life too, but for the first three months at least it was pointless trying to impose anything. By 4 months our days had naturally found a predictable rhythm.

I don't know anyone whose newborn went 4 hours between feeds, whether breastfed or formula fed. A couple of friends have FF babies who were going 4 hours by 5/6 months, but my almost 6 month old still feeds 3 hourly.

Totally disagree with schmee I'm afraid - there is no such thing as bad habits in a 4 week old baby! Maybe with a 5 or 6 month old, but a 1 month old doesn't have habits, let alone bad ones. You can't spoil a baby, and certainly not with love or comfort.

Definitely don't feel bad Flipper. It is very easy to make ourselves feel guilty about absolutely everything in the early days of motherhood and the conflicting advice you have received (and will continue to get - it doesn't stop I'm afraid) makes it easy for us to be 'wrong' no matter what we do. On another forum you might find people telling you off for letting him feed for so long and falling into the trap of 'accidental parenting' (grrrr I hate that phrase) and then you could feel guilty about that instead!

But the advice here is good. Feed whenever he seems interested for as long as he seems interested. Try not to stress about getting other stuff done and remember that this stage will be really short. There is no point worrying about bad habits and snacking now. Babies change so quickly it sometimes feel like I've been issued a new one every fortnight. Every annoying habit they develop now you can guarantee will stop really quickly, and conversely every utterly adorable thing they do you can also guarantee will stop really quickly. So try to enjoy your baby now as much as possible.

I'm another one who thought Baby Whisperer was awful for bfing mums. It really made me doubt myself but lucily I'd ordered 'The Baby Book' at the same time which is brilliant.

My DD has always had long feeds with lots of cluster feeding but now at 7wo she sleeps most nights for at least 5 hours!

MoonUnitAlpha - I don't actually think I said that you could spoil a baby of that age. Just being supportive of the OP who had been made to feel like a bad mother because she has followed advice (from professionals) and adopted a slightly different approach to yours.
o long as they are gaining weight it really doesn't matter.

Good post VeronicaCake.

OP - please don't feel that you need to wake your baby just because he hasn't fed for 3 hours. Four hours is absolutely fine if he is gaining weight.

OP you have have not had terrible advice in RL as someone said, but maybe it's not the right advice for you and your baby. Know that you can speak to as many 'experts' as you like until you find a system that works for you. That might be feeding every few hours or it might be feeding on demand - neither is right or wrong.

If you have a sufficient milk supply then you don't need to feed on demand just to boost that, so if feeding on demand stresses you then don't do it, if you need a break in between feeds and don't get one you will be exhausted and stressed which is not good for you, your baby or your milk supply.

Also it will take a bit of time to get used to your baby's signals. My 8wk dd roots and sucks fist for lots of things, poo-ey nappy, boredom, hunger, wind, it's not always hunger. I have pumped and bottle fed ebm just to make sure I know she is getting a proper feed and she still does the fist sucking even after a monster feed when definitely doesn;t want to take anymore!

I also always try to let her feed for as long as she wants, and usually she eventually pulls off and rests her head on my breast in a satisfied dozy way. Sometimes this take longer than others. However sometimes she gets frantic though and after sessions with a lactation consultant we realised that when she has wind she tries to keep sucking for comfort but keeps getting more milk which makes the problem worse, so when I spot that happening I just have to take her off and give her something else to suck on (usually a dummy). My point being that you can't really have a definite rule about how long to let them feed for.

snowcone - the advice the OP has had has indeed been awful....and it would have been awful for anyone, anywhere, with any baby. As you say yourself, 'you can't have a definite rule about how long to let them feed for'. The OP was given a definite rule. Terrible advice :(

The OP was stressed not feeding on demand - all the jiggling and comforting and offering formula and ebm and expressing, to avoid feeding for longer/more frequently than a set time.

I agree with you that it can take time for mothers and babies to get their communications and signals understood between each other :)