Going crazy!

[flipper99]

I'm sure this will sound really stupid but I'm having real difficulty working out whether my 4 week DS is hungry or not!

He was quite jaundiced to start with and since the beginning has always fallen asleep - or just sucked at me like a dummy - during his feeds. I can now tell when he's swallowing etc and feeding efficiently but I constantly have to remind him and have been advised by midwives to switch sides throughout the feed and do breast compression. He doesn't just come off or fall asleep at the end of a feed as I was led to believe breastfed babies do when they're full!

Basically I make sure he's been at the breast being as efficient as possible for 30-45 minutes but every time I take him off (from his comfort sucking) he fusses about and does all the "hungry faces" - like sticking out his tongue etc. Sometimes I or DH can give him a cuddle and seem to settle him - or distract him out of it! - and then he may or may not settle for a couple of hours. But how do I know if when he cries after an hour or so whether he's hungry?

We've topped him up with expressed milk or formula quite a few times but he'll just suck and suck on a finger whether or not we are squirting milk down the side from a syringe, so that is no help in working it out. He sometimes settles with a dummy which I'm finidng useful but worried it's making his latch worse too..... arrgh it seems like such a simple decision to make - is he hungry? - but I spend every waking minute wondering this and it's driving me crazy!

thanks snowcone I think some of the things you say about your baby's signals might be what applies to mine. I've been thinking about this a lot (of course!) and I don't think the issue is whether I feed on demand, 1 hrly, 4 hrly or whatever, it's just that I don't know when he's actually hungry from the signals he gives me.

For example - these are some of the various patterns I have had since last night:

• fed for over an hour, after the first 15 mins or so each time he latched on he would be asleep within 30 seconds yet come off again and look "hungry" (to me) within a couple of minutes - so topped up with 40ml and then slept for a good few hours

• fed really efficiently for 35 mins, back to sleep :)

• fed this morning for an hour and a half but seemed to be getting more frustrated as he was sucking at the end of it (?wind in retrospect), decided to top up, fell asleep during 20ml top up! bit of a puke half an hour later (?overfull) now crying intermittently unless rocked by DH ?hungry again as 3.5 hours since whole thing started....

Sorry if this is too much detail but now I'm trying on demand and as long as he seems to "want" I'm even more confused... Sometimes I just feel I have to top up as he's not actually feeding yet seems hungry. But at other times he can do really well. I'm just wondering if the hungry faces can mean more than just that he's hungry (like wind etc).

I have contacted an NCT breastfeeding counsellor so hopefully she is going to visit at some point - fingers crossed she will have the answer!I'm surprised everyone is so unanimous that the advice I had was so bad as it was from the breastfeeding consultants at the hospital breastfeeding clinic, so I thought they were the experts

The experts at your local hospital will be expert on feeding problems, what the signs of poor feeding are and what kind of underlying causes should be examined. If they said your son had any health problems then you should follow their advice.

But bf-ing is about a relationship between you and your baby. Experts cannot advise you on this relationship. Nor can other breastfeeding mothers, we can only let you know what worked for us and suggest a bit of trial and error.

What I can tell you is that I felt like you when my baby was your age. I wanted technical answer to the questions 'how long should my baby feed for?' and 'how often?'.

But there aren't right answers to these questions and I placed myself under a lot of unnecessary stress agonising over whether I was doing it 'right'.

Seeing a breastfeeding counsellor helped me lots so I hope it will help you too. But in the meantime don't beat yourself up about not always being able to interpret hunger cues successfully first time. You and your baby are learning about each other. Over the next few weeks I'm sure a pattern to your sons needs will emerge for you which will make life seem easier. Although you'll still get days when your baby only wants to eat or sleeps a freakish amount and you start wondering if you know what you are doing.

flipper, I hope the bfc will help, too...but she won't have 'the answer' cos the question you are asking is not possible :) I think the question you are asking is 'how do I know when my baby is hungry?' and this is to think of breastfeeding solely as a means of getting milk into a baby and it is much more.

As Veronica says, it is part of your relationship with him, or, rather, it is the 'territory' on which your relationship is expressed. He may not want to be away from the breast very long, and just want to be near the breast or on it, 'cos he wants to stay with you.

You are judging the effectiveness of a feed by how long your baby stays asleep after it - not helpful at all :( Your baby could have a perfectly 'good' feed and then want feeding again 15 mins later :) That's normal.

Topping up will reduce the overall effectiveness of bf. If you think he wants more, then just stick him on again. If he does not want to feed again, then he may just want to be close to you. Keep him close, in that case :) I think this is what you mean when you say he does not want to feed but looks/seems hungry.

If a breastfeeding consultant (not sure what one of them is....do you mean a lactation consultant?) says to feed four hourly and not to feed for longer than 35-40 mins, then she is not doing her job properly....truly!

tiktok - I think the clue is in the word "breastFEEDING".

Flipper is seeking advice on feeding her baby properly - not judgements on her philosophy.

Flipper - hope it goes well with the breastfeeding counsellor. You will always get conflicting advice as people hold strong views about the best philosophy of childrearing/feeding your baby. What you are doing - trying to understand your baby's cues - sounds like the best possible thing.

And remember, no matter what your baby is going to be fine and happy.

Flipper you know your baby better than anyone so you go with what you think is right and what your baby wants. My 1st child didn't take to breast feeding but my 2nd did. I fed my 2nd on demand which was pretty much most of the time. To some of them it is as much a comfort thing as it is a food source. I fed my son for 18mths and with teeth. When he had had enough eventually his mouth would fall away with a dribble and I knew he was content. As he got older he would actually tug at my top to try and feed and now he still likes to put his hand in side your top now sometimes and his dads or who ever is around when he is tired as he likes to feel close to you.

schmee - I am not making any comments, let alone judgements , on philosophy.

It is a fact that feeding (however it is done, breastfeeding or formula feeding...in this case it is breastfeeding) plays a part in relationships....to the baby a feed is more than satisfying hunger.

I can't think anyone with any knowledge of babies, even personal experience of babies, would disagree. This is not 'philosophy' but biology and development.

My ds is 7 weeks and feeds about every 2 hrs, afternoons he can sometimes go 3 hrs but then on a evening from about 6 he'll cluster feed and can be on my book for a hour but when he was younger it'd b longer up to 2 hrs. I stoke my ds foot or ear to try and keep him awake a bit more. Also if he's been on a while and sucking has slowed down I'll move my boob a bit and he either comes off or starts sucking franticly. I got told from the hospital to not let my ds go more than 4 hrs with out feeding at first. He has now started sleeping upto 6hrs solid on a night. Hang in there it does get easier esp after the 6 week growth spurt

pinkyp, I am very impressed with the advanced skills shown by your baby - reading, already?!

("he'll cluster feed and can be on my book for a hour")

:)

try not to worry about it too much flipper :) you sound like you're doing well. I think everyone feels a bit clueless and worries about how they're doing things at first (I certainly did).

The way I approached it was that if he cried or whimpered I would feed him (regardless of when I fed him last). If he was hungry or thirsty, feeding fixes it. If he was tired, it would send him to sleep. If he wanted comfort/warmth/cuddle it provides that.
If feeding doesn't solve the problem then you can try winding, nappy change etc but I found it easiest to make feeding the first thing I did and it worked well for ds.

It's not a perfect method though (as there's no such thing with a baby), I think I persisted with offering the breast too long sometimes when he was actually tired and wanted to sleep (they tend to sleep on you less easily as they get older IME). But you can only do your best and you learn by experience.

Make sure you spend time enjoying your baby and how gorgeous he is and don't worry too much about whether you're doing things 'right' :)

lol tiktok, i dont like to brag

dam u blackberry

Thanks everyone, I feel much better today and am chilling out about it a bit. The bf counsellor came this morning and basically just reiterated the "no rules" thing and just said I should use trial and error to find what works for me. And so far so good as we're having a good day today with some good feeding, sleeping and not too much crying :)

And I don't think I'll go back to the bf clinic at the hospital (there was no feeding problem as such, I just went with the same concerns I've described here - which I now know is totally normal). Thanks again for all the advice, I can tell I'm going to be totally addicted to MN!

Blimey, even at nearly 6 mo DD still feeds pretty much every 2 hrs! Apart from at night it is rarely up to 4 hrs. She isn't in bad habits, that is just how she wants to feed.

At 4 wks you will drive yourself mad looking for patterns, even if there was one chances are it would change.

But don't stress or be upset, you have had shoddy advice in real life, that's all, no harm done. Im a first timer too (assuming you are?) and found early on that if I was observant and just listened to what she wanted regardless of 'experts' like HVs etc we were all far happier and more relaxed. Remember your LO is just a bundle of instincts at the mo, you can't spoil or train him.

Glad you've had a good day flipper

Good post from marzipananimal.

I'd never really liked the term 'nursing a baby' before, (it always seemed a bit old fashioned) but when you think about it, it is spot on. Nurses provide food, drink, comfort and pain relief for their patients - exactly as mothers provide these things by nursing their babies.

So glad that you were happy with the Bfing Counsellor and that you are having a better day.

Not going to the Bfing Clinic sounds like a good plan, judging by the advice you've been given by them. Having said that I think you might benefit from mixing with some other Bfing Mums, even if its just for some coffee, a chat and a bit of reassurance. Are there any other groups near to you? LLL, NCT etc?

Hi flipper, my dd2 is 5 months old and is still feeding every 2.5-3 hours during the day. When she was 4-8 weeks old she cluster fed in the evening for HOURS, like 5 hours non-stop. Look at it this way, if they feed loads during the day, hopefully they'll go for a longer stretch at night My formula fed dd1 even had her bottles every 3 hours, not 4.

My tuppence worth is just relax, throw away the books and the clock, stop listening to scary advice, and snuggle with your baby on the sofa and in bed, with your computer, tv, books, tea, chocolate, or whatever floats your boat and enjoy!! If baby wants to suck, let him. At that age, when in doubt, put him on the boob. 99% of the time he'll be happy with that anyway at his age!

It's such a special time, and its fab when it's your first and you can just laze around and don't have to entertain a poor neglected toddler too. Good luck!

"my dd2 is 5 months old and is still feeding every 2.5-3 hours during the day"

I'm much, much older and I eat and drink more regularly than that