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Infant feeding

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Q and A with Mike Brady from Baby Milk Action

326 replies

RachelMumsnet · 06/12/2010 14:05

We're inviting you to send in your questions to Mike Brady, Campaigns and Networking Coordinator at Baby Milk Action.

Mike graduated in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and has worked in Africa as an engineer and science teacher. At Baby Milk Action, he monitors the baby food industry and campaigns to hold them to account.

Baby Milk Action is a non-profit organisation which aims to save lives and to end the avoidable suffering caused by inappropriate infant feeding. It is the UK member of the International Baby Food Action Network (IBFAN), a network of over 200 citizens groups in more than 100 countries.

Baby Milk Action's slogan is: "Protecting breastfeeding - Protecting babies fed on formula". It is perhaps best known for promoting a boycott of Nestlé, but also works with national governments and international bodies on regulations and marketing standards.

Mike was seen earlier this year outside Nestlé (UK) HQ in the guise of [[http://info.babymilkaction.org/emailnestle
Mr. Henry Nastie]], explaining Nestlé's marketing practices.

Send your questions in to Mike before midday on Friday 9th December and we'll link through to his answers from this thread later the following week.

OP posts:
Himalaya · 09/12/2010 10:07

This thread has been derailed into a bit of a bunfight and the guest 'speaker' isn't even here yet.

BMA campaigns for the full implementation of the WHO International Code on Marketing of Breastmilk Substitutes. I don't get what people's problem is with that - whether they are BFers or FFers, surely that mission is worth supporting (...and then you can argue about whether the tactics themselves are working).

I wonder if someone from MNHQ should tidy up all the questions into a new thread rather than invite Mike Brady into the tail end of this squabble?...or would that be seen as closing down debate?

Also I do think MN should invite Janet Voûte from Nestle to come and do a right of reply set of questions here. She has just joined Nestle as Vice President of Corporate Affairs, and has from the UN World Health Organisation. I'd be interested to hear her views and responses (and wonder if she would come on here to do that)

tiktok · 09/12/2010 10:21

Good idea about getting the Nestle person in, Himalaya.

Baby Milk Action has always encouraged dialogue and exchange with formula manufacturers.

LifeOfKate · 09/12/2010 10:29

Totally agree with ohanotherone and bb99.

Would also just like to point out that Nestle does not sell formula milk in the UK, so a Nestle boycott here does not equal a formula milk boycott. I think this is a good thing, as it separates the issues; I boycott Nestle because I disagree with their marketing practices in other countries, not because I am anti-formula.

My question for Mike is:
The government are clearly falling short of the international code for marketing breastmilk substitutes, why do you think this is? I'm thinking particularly about the marketing of complementary weaning foods and follow on milks (age 6 months +). I find it very difficult to see the government accept these marketing practices when the official advice is that weaning should take place from 6 months and I am also confused as to how the marketing of 6 month + follow on milk is acceptable when milk is essential for all babies up to at least 12 months. It becomes no less essential at 6 months, even though the weaning process is started. Do you think the government will step up a bit in terms of the code and if not, why do you think they won't?

ohanotherone · 09/12/2010 10:45

I agree with LifeofKate. I understand that BMA predominantly is concerned with the impact of Formula Feeding in developing countries, however, there is a an issue in this country with babies being put at risk of both acute and chronic disease from formula feeding. The response of successive governments seems to be to educate midwives and health professionals but it is very difficult for a HCP to disseminate advice, often under pressure, in difficult situtions against the huge influence of formula companies. Sucessive governments do not use the clinical evidence and basic science to support strong measures to inform women at a higher level, which is a disgrace! For example, allowing 6+ month follow on milk adverts, where indeed is the evidence for that????

MilaMae · 09/12/2010 13:24

Haven't bailed but diving in and out. Waves to Funnys.

I actually agree with Tiktok that ff and bf threads should be joint. Neither formula or bm should be hid from view. Why should they?Also as the maj of mums start bf,that means the maj use both so need info on both.

I also think both ff and bf learn about both on joint forums which they wouldn't if separated. I think a lot of bf mums simply think ffs just shove a bottle in without a single thought or care in the world,don't try hard enough etc,etc.Reading posts from ff can only educate the reality of resorting to ff for many mums.

I also think for those dipping their toe into ff posts from bf can encourage them on with bf. I've read countless posts when this has happened.

I just think a rather large amount of sensitivity and knowledge of the realities of ff is needed on the subject which is sadly very lacking. I rarely see such insensitivity on any other issue and it angers and saddens me greatly.

Apologies for bad grammar,have to fly.

bb99 · 09/12/2010 17:24

I didn't know any of the facts about BF or FF, at all for a very long time.

The only piece of information rattling around in my head was the 'breast is best' slogan - and I personally HATE this slogan, IMO all sorts of issues tied up with telling people they're NOT doing what is best for their child UNLESS they BF.

I was lucky to manage to BF DC1 15 years ago and the situation then was...

  1. Formula readily available in the hospital (ready made up) for ANYONE who wanted or needed it - DC1 was given a bottle (with my permission) as their 'blood sugar was low' - obviously getting me to BF a bit more would have been more useful...
  2. Money off coupons and free samples in (I think) the Bounty type bags.
  3. NO leaflets even explaining the basics of BF or FF
  4. No trained people available to help if you had problems (except through personal referal to NCT or LaLecheL.
  5. No where to feed dcs, except grotty public toilets, esp as everyone was SO freaked out if you BF in public.
  6. No actual information about WHY 'breast is best'.
  7. Lots of advertising of FF

Had dc2 3/4 years ago and the situation HAS improved RE: BF info, but not by much. I'm pg atm and have a few lovely leaflets which even mention and demonstrate latching on etc and some of the common problems and it's easier to feed when out and about now, BUT there is still very little info about WHY BF is 'best'

No info on why it's good for me, or how it is good for the baby (like the hospital admissions etc)...I have only found that out through sites like MN. Also no useful info like....your baby will want to feed more frequently because it will digest the BM more quickly than FM as BM is specifically engineered for baby humans and mother nature is (currently) a bit smarter than all those clever scientists working hard to improve FF.

This would have been a REALLY useful piece of info, as the culture I am immersed in constantly goes 'oh, isn't DC going for 4 hours between feeds yet? What's wrong with DC???' ie why the heck are you BOTHERING to BF (from friends and family)

Also until I read this thread I had NO IDEA that FF wasn't a sterile product or that it was so uncontrolled - I had always assumed it was very well regulated as I think baby food for under 1yo is.

OK, maybe I am just a bit stoopid, but surely the info just isn't getting through? The slogan is getting through, but the supporting info isn't.

Plus I think that there should be parity with the information - maybe a "This is how to BF or FF and these are the pros and cons of both...make your own mind up about how to feed your child"

bb99 · 09/12/2010 17:28

BTW - I am as shocked that I know so little about FF, what if I wasn't just lucky (it's the only reason I can think of that the BFing worked) and needed to FF in a hurry - there would be little or NO info on how to do it safely etc.

Caz10 · 09/12/2010 17:33

Great points bb99

I was the same re knowledge of ff, and got really pushed into it by health professionals when dd's weight gain wasn't great. As it turned out all I needed was better bf info as she hadn't been feeding often enough etc. Anyway, sent dh very reluctantly (and quite hysterically by that point) to buy formula, he came back with a tub of powder and we both just stared at it, no clue!! Ended up doing it wrongly I now know, so thank goodness DD was ok. Moved to mix feeding when i went back to work and spent a fortune on the ready made cartons.

Which finally! leads to another question:

What do you think of "Breast is Best"? If you are not keen, what would you suggest as an alternative?

Feefsie · 09/12/2010 19:36

My sons were both bottle fed after hospitalisation following mastitis. They are both big, strong, intelligent, have straight healthy teeth (no cavaties) aren't overweight and don't catch many colds or bugs. The majority of my friends breastfed to loose weight - how can you feed a baby on a radish and a ryvita!

tabouleh · 09/12/2010 19:54

Feefsie - have you read the OP of this thread? It is to post Questions for Baby Milk Action.

Is that your question for Baby Milk Action is it - "how can you feed a baby on a radish and a ryvita"? Hmm

Hopefully one of the experienced BF MNers will be along to tell you about how amazing the human body is and that malnourished mothers in developing countries can BF their babies.

organiccarrotcake · 09/12/2010 20:42

"And don't tell me your children were healthy (mine aren't BTW) because the plural of anecdote is not data."

Excellent quote.

bb99 super post.

Mike Brady My question is, how can the marketing of formula properly be controlled in the UK when the only apparent organisation to control it, the ASA, is a toothless waste of time. As it stands, if an advert is found to breach the regulations (such as the big-cup advert) the company is simply told to stop running it. Often they don't (I've seen this advert since its banning despite C&G telling me they were not running it again) and even if it isn't run again there's no requirement for retraction so viewers simply assumed it's run its course.

TruthSweet · 09/12/2010 20:54

Mike Brady - What can we do in the UK to help support safer formula feeding in other countries? I'm already boycotting Nestle (and telling market researchers this!) but I want to do more to help.

MilaMae · 09/12/2010 22:04

It's strange BB99 on every single one of your 7 points my experience was exactly the opposite. This was 7 years ago and 6 years ago in 2 completely different cities.

I'm starting to wonder where you live.I was in my GP's waiting room only last week and there was masses of info on why breast is best. Children's centre's have masses of info too, have you not picked up a pg magazine either recently most issues have articles about it......

Seriously women are swamped with it and have felt swamped for some time. The only bit of info that is sadly lacking is how to actually breast feed.I'm still totally none the wiser 7 years on.

FunnysInTheGarden · 09/12/2010 22:49

Hi Mila!

Maybe BMA should take issue with a UK based formula maker and not Nestle, since they do not produce formula for the UK. It would be more relevant to the debate.

Incidentally, I was shocked to see the postcard for sale on the BMA website showing a twin dying due to the use of formula. Shocked because instead of taking a photo of a 'study of child dying due to formula' someone should surely have stepped in to help.

Instead the image is available as a postcard to illustrate how formula damages third world children. To me that is exploitation at it's worst.

tiktok · 09/12/2010 23:02

Funnys, that postcard is well-known. The mother gave her permission for her photograph to be taken and shared. She was not exploited in the way you suggest. Her story is at the website www.babymilkaction.org/shop/pcards.html#twins No one took her picture rather than help her. She was in a hospital, and treatment was given, but it was too late.

Nestle does not sell formula in the UK at the moment, but it does sell a range of other foods, and boycotting these is one way UK people can show their concern for what is done by Nestle elsewhere. There's nothing 'irrelevant' in the UK about the Nestle boycott, unless you happen to think we should only ever care about what happens our own doorstep.

TruthSweet · 09/12/2010 23:19

But why should they if no UK based formula company is behaving in such a fashion as Nestle does? The BMA isn't picking fights with formula companies because it disagrees with ffing, they are leading citizen action against a company who puts profit before lives.

Say Nestle didn't make formula at all, they made dialysis machines that were too expensive to run for the majority of the world and were sold with incomplete instructions so they were used improperly and Nestle knew it.

However, knowing this they still ran massive campaigns in developing nations to persuade people from using their own kidneys, installed sales nurses in hospitals to encourage healthy people to use dialysis for spurious reasons and spread misinformation about how using your own kidneys to filter urea from your blood was inefficient and archaic, etc, etc.

Would you be horrified if you found that out and want to do something? Or would you say, well we have dialysis machines in the UK and only patients with renal failure use them so I don't think it's important that people are dying in other places because of Nestle's actions?

Why can't people who are passionate about bfing be fine about ffing in the UK (which I am) but still want corporations to behave ethically in countries where in the absence of bfing (excluding medically indicated ffing) ffing could lead to death.

I'm not saying mothers shouldn't have the choice of bfing/ffing but if ffing safely uses half the money they have each month (not watering down formula/having enough boiled clean water/etc) then if they can be enabled to bf and they want to then they shouldn't have their choice taken away from them by an company that doesn't have their or their baby's best interests at heart.

Please note I said could not will or should or would and I am referring ONLY to developing nations not the UK.

Oh, and on the twin point, did you read the blurb alongside the postcard?

This picture tells two stories: most obviously, about the often fatal consequences of bottle-feeding; more profoundly, about the age-old bias in favour of the male. The child with the bottle is a girl - she died the next day. Her twin brother was breastfed. This woman was told by her mother-in-law that she didn't have enough milk for both her children, and so should breastfeed the boy. But almost certainly she could have fed both children herself, because the process of suckling induces the production of milk. However, even if she found that she could not produce sufficient milk - unlikely as that would be - a much better alternative to bottle-feeding would have been to find a wet-nurse. Ironically, this role has sometimes been taken by the grandmother. In most cultures, before the advent of bottle-feeding, wet-nursing was a common practice.

"Use my picture if it will help", said the mother. "I don't want other people to make the same mistake."

TruthSweet · 09/12/2010 23:20

Tiktok - as ever more eloquent and less verbose than meSmile

tiktok · 09/12/2010 23:27

:) TruthSweet's verbosity :)!

Dialysis analogy good, but you know some people will be shocked and outraged and utterly horrified that you clearly think formula feeding is exactly like forcing your baby to undergo dialysis.....

Hmm
TruthSweet · 09/12/2010 23:37

Well, you know me tiktok I hate ffing but I do love a nice bit of dialysis in the am......NOT TRUE BTW.

I have supported mothers to stop bfing, I have supported mixed feeding mothers, and in the absence of loads donor milk just sitting about in A&E - formula has made DD3's life a lot easier (better than putting me under a GA so I would stay still long enough to feed her [in a shed load of pain that max dosages of morphine, buscopan, diclofenac, IV paracetamol & g&a couldn't cope with]) so I am ever so, ever so glad that formula exists!

Please note though I was talking about adults undergoing dialysis to avoid some confusion Wink

tiktok · 10/12/2010 08:55

Always good to spell it out, Truth :)

Feefsie · 10/12/2010 09:17

I find most bf mothers quite ascerbic and very self righteous. There are NO guarantees in this world if you are bf, ff, poor, wealthy, born in the West or the 3rd world. BUT I don't really think boycotting Nestle products will affect their balance sheet!

You can only do your best for your kids, with the situation you are in at the time.

lowercase · 10/12/2010 09:41

have you met most bf mothers?

how can you make such a generalisation?

bigot.

LifeOfKate · 10/12/2010 09:59

Fantastic post, TruthSweet :)

tiktok · 10/12/2010 10:18

I am ascerbic and proud, feefsie :)

It's got nothing to do with whether I bf or not.

Sometimes, ascerbicness/ascerbity (????) is a damn fine thing to be, as a response to daft and deliberately ignorant comments about infant feeding and in the face of unethical marketing intended to undermine a mother's choice to bf.

I am not self-righteous, because I agree with you that on the whole mothers do the best they can in whatever situation they are in at the time. Infant feeding is more than a personal lifestyle choice, and takes place in a specific cultural and social 'space' which can be very powerful.

But....yay for being ascerbic :)

organiccarrotcake · 10/12/2010 10:28

"BUT I don't really think boycotting Nestle products will affect their balance sheet!" Two answers to this:

  1. It does. It has forced them to change many of their terrible practises. Because the boycott is so huge, it seriously affects their income. But the more people who join, the better.

  2. Even if a person didn't believe that their individual contribution to the boycott would make a difference (which of course it does), for me to buy a product which is made by a company with such practises then makes me a party to them, which makes me feel sick.

Despite the changes the boycott has forced Nestle to make, sadly there is still a long way to go because they continue to break the law, and to cause the unnecessary deaths of babies. Sadly I don't need BMA's website to know this, having spent too much time in Africa myself and seen it first hand, as well as having extensive family (4 cousins and an aunt and uncle) who live and work in Africa for development charities and the UN). While I was initially sceptical when I came across the boycott as an 18 year old student (the NUS supports the boycott, as I found out when I tried to buy a KitKat in a SU shop), actually being in Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Malawi and Morocco myself and my family members living and working in about 6 other African countries, I assure you that everything that BMA claims happens, happens :( :(

The "twins" photo is of course emotive. Dead and dying babies have that effect. It is rather like the images that are used by the NSPCC, and some of their advertising I just can't cope with. The point is, it clearly and pointedly puts across the problem and what BMA is trying to stop. I have no patience with those who just get upset about BMA being anti FF, andmybaybeewouldhavediedwithoutffthereforebmaisbaaaad. As has been clearly stated and is obvious if the website is properly read, BMA is NOT anti-ff, and neither is any right-minded person. Correct and appropriate FF saves lives. That's one of BMA's key messages. Correct and appropriate. Incorrect and inappropriate takes lives.

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