Q and A with Mike Brady from Baby Milk Action

[RachelMumsnet]

We're inviting you to send in your questions to Mike Brady, Campaigns and Networking Coordinator at Baby Milk Action.

Mike graduated in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and has worked in Africa as an engineer and science teacher. At Baby Milk Action, he monitors the baby food industry and campaigns to hold them to account.

Baby Milk Action is a non-profit organisation which aims to save lives and to end the avoidable suffering caused by inappropriate infant feeding. It is the UK member of the International Baby Food Action Network (IBFAN), a network of over 200 citizens groups in more than 100 countries.

Baby Milk Action's slogan is: "Protecting breastfeeding - Protecting babies fed on formula". It is perhaps best known for promoting a boycott of Nestlé, but also works with national governments and international bodies on regulations and marketing standards.

Mike was seen earlier this year outside Nestlé (UK) HQ in the guise of [[http://info.babymilkaction.org/emailnestle
Mr. Henry Nastie]], explaining Nestlé's marketing practices.

Send your questions in to Mike before midday on Friday 9th December and we'll link through to his answers from this thread later the following week.

imagines funny and tab arms linked skipping down the road in FF solidarity Funny - thanks for letting me know you liked my post.

Tis all ver strange this thread what with being that I asked for it and all.

I think this has actually teased out more issues that the "standard" BF v FF thread.

Food(*) for thought for future threads maybe.

(*) BF or FF

The thing is though I agree with tiktok's 17:46:30 post apart from the last para I believe many of the negative feelings of formula feeding mothers come from within them, and not from breastfeeding supporters.

tiktok I find you very measured and balanced re FF and I agree with you about the marketing (but not sure how to explain that to others who disagree)

However BF supports here on MN do make me feel bad about myself as there is often no empathy about what people like me and my DS may have gone through.

Case in point from lowercase

formula is only a good alternative if there is nothing else. there is no good alternative to breastmilk. sorry!

really - why post this when you know there are FF's and ex-FF's actively involved on the thread?!

I'd like to make an analogy of my own.

Vaginal delivery v C-section. Rate of C-Section's are high - lots of people wish the rate were lower etc etc but rarely do you see/hear of individuals been criticised for having a C-Section (celebs and too posh to push stupid comments aside).

So some C-Sections are probably a cause of a sort of "C-Section culture" - combination of medicalistion of birth/stretched midwives/stressful journey from home - hospital/older mothers etc etc. Factors often conspire to lead to a C-Section. You can't possibly say about individuals whether their case could have been prevented. Of course some "choose" C-Section but we're not party to their reasons etc.

Now unless someone's going to tell me that Mother's feel criticised for C-Sections - can't we move more to that sort of a viewpoint. I.E. compassion for someone FFing who didn't want to/no criticism as the individual has chosen what was needed in their world at that point in time.

So perhaps you can try to change the world a bit in general to encourage BF without criticising FF?

Mila - what would your ideal world look like in terms of BF and FF - info/support/attitudes?

lowercase please can I respectfully suggest that you go and read the blog I linked to and read this MN thread (but please don't post on it)!

Presumably you don't realise that saying "there is no good alternative to breastmilk." makes me feel like crap even though DS is nearly 3.3 years old.

What are you doing personally to support BFing in this country?

Interestingly the person who made the McDs comment had children born by section under GA and the children given formula before she was even awake and only exclusively breastfed for a short time.

There is no good alternative to breastmilk, just because it kept my children alive when I was too ill to get to them doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't have formaldehyde, MSG, mercury etc in it.

I also think sections are overused, I think they have negatives to them. I cringed the other day when I heard someone say that even though their baby has turned they're still going to have a section because of their PGP, I wanted to scream "Noooooooooo how will cutting through your core muscles make it better?" Although it possibly saved our lives it won't change the fact that I didn't get over PGP and have been on on crutches for two years.

Heparin is currently saving my life, doesn't mean it doesn't have downsides, doesn't stop the fact I can't have my children on my lap because I'm in pain from it.

Speed is saving my sister's life...

Medical advances have their upsides but that doesn't mean they don't have their downsides, especially when overused. And no, I'm not comparing speed to formula, just saying it's a medical advancement.

And that brings us back to the point of BMA. Formula is not as good as it could be and it's being marketed as something far better than it is. BMA are trying to make it better for those of us who really do need to use it.

Thanks for finding me measured and balanced, tabuleh (instead of bullying, aggressive and patronising!).

Interestingly, mothers do feel criticised for having sections - surely you have read personal experiences and posts? Again, I think the idea that they are criticised by other mothers who did not have sections is hugely magnified - on the whole, mothers are pretty supportive of other mothers, in birth experiences as well as feeding experiences, and tend not to make personal judgements.

I do believe that the negative feelings people have about their birth experiences and about their feeding experiences come largely from disappointment and regret - it is perfectly possible to have feelings of sadness about a birth, at the same time as being thrilled and relieved that the baby is here, safe and well and grateful to the section that made it possible. It's also possible to recognise that not breastfeeding means an experience has been missed, and at the same time to be thankful that feeding is going well and that the baby is thriving and healthy.

I suppose it's called 'mixed feelings'.

It's also possible to have a good section, so you are treated well and kindly, your baby is given skin to skin, and you understand the reason for it. It's also possible to have a good bottle feeding experience, so the baby is fed closely and responsively, without struggle, and again, you understand the reason for it.

I don't accept that if there was no breastfeeding support and no breastfeeding supporters that formula feeding women would somehow stop having mixed feelings about formula feeding - that's preposterous, and actually very unfair.

tabouleh - lowercase's view that there is no good alternative to breastmilk is not a personal criticism of you and if you feel crap about a comment like this on a talkboard over three years later, then I respectfully suggest this is your issue, and that these feelings are deeper than anything that could possibly be caused by breastfeeding supporters.

Formula is the only realistic alternative to breastmilk, and it needs to be as safe and as nutritious as possible to support the 98 per cent of babies who get it in the UK :)

It's actually irrelevant whether someone you don't know thinks it's a 'good' alternative or not - surely? You may feel these comments deeply, and my post before was one which tried to acknowledge the sensitivity of women who use formula. I know you are sincere. But it's not lowercase's fault you feel this, years on.

It's daft to say 'good', anyway. If something is a 'good' alternative, it rather supposes there is at least one or two other alternatives which are not so good, in order to compare. Formula is (obviously) better than no breastmilk....I suppose it is also clearly better than gruel or fruit shoots, but neither of these are realistic alternatives.

oh arse - I probably need counselling or to type up my birth/BF story and get some input from other MNers

No it isn't daft calling it "good".

It saved all 3 of my dc's lives.

All 3 of my dc thrived on it(which they most certainly were not doing on breast milk).

It was safe(as opposed to some home made brew) as I prepared it correctly and was careful not to over feed.

It enabled me to stop enduring the agony of breastfeeding.

It gave me my sanity back and enabled me to actually start enjoying my long awaited babies.

Actually "good" isn't enough it's fan bloody fantastic to many,many women in this country however unpalatable that may be.

Tab my ideal world I'm afraid (especially with this gov) is probably unrealistic.

I would like realistic breast feeding courses before birth with both ff and bf lecturing.I would like truth of the difficulties and pain discussed in detail(so no shocks later on). I've already started doing this with my dd. We have a history of problamatic bf that goes back generations but nobody ever mentioned it not even my mother. So gullible old me thought an hour after giving birth to twins I'd have 2 content suckling babies and a radiant mummy-ha bloody ha. I was hoodwinked hook line and sinker by everybody and it's totally counter productive.If you know there is a good chance it'll be shite you'll already have strategies in place instead of panic stricken fumbling when the time comes.

After birth if the mother wanted to bf I'd like a midwife assigned to every mother with the sole purpose of being there at all feeds(paged if nec). When the mother leaves hospital ideally much better at bf than many are I'd like bf support at home for longer and for longer periods ie a whole morning or pm(like Homestart so not nec a m/w, paid/volunteers who are very well qualified in bf.If they were there for a whole morning they'd actually witness 2 or 3 complete feeds. After a period of time(varying dep on the mum) when bf was extremely well established there would be a full time drop in bf centre at the health clinic.

Our generation doesn't have mothers constantly by our side showing us how to do it. Most of our mothers are working or don't even live nearby. We're totally alone and have nobody.BF needs constant support if difficulties occur, like the old days. That support can't be given by family members.

Alongside this I'd like the same amount of info re breast being best but I'd like the scaremongering to stop.It achieves nothing and actually causes more pain and helps mums spiral down into a cycle which results in stopping. I'd like ff to cease to be treated as if it was a dirty class A drug.It does a job, a good one,it feeds babies. It's not the best food but it's not the worse,it serves it's purpose.

I'd like a bit of reality ie your baby is more likely to be killed in a car crash than die from drinking formula yet nobody tells you to stop putting babies into cars. If the scaremongering stopped and reality kept to more mothers would feel stronger when battling with bf. Fear is pointless when you don't have the tools to battle on,fear just weakens you.

If the support was there bf rates would rocket and I doubt anybody would feel the need to scare mothers into bf. Sadly my dream world would cost a small fortune and as mothers just don't have the support needed to successfully bf I don't know what the answer is.

Tab that blog is great,I could have written the twin post.

Sorry epic post

Mila, I was not discussing whether or not formula is 'good' - I was discussing whether or not it was a 'good alternative' to breastmilk. To me, as I explained, but you know, I'll explain again....it only makes sense to talk about 'a good alternative' when there is more than one alternative, and realistically, there isn't.

Yes, more and better quality support is needed to enable mothers to breastfeed happily.

I have not seen any scaremongering about formula (but it could be my scaremonger threshhold is set too high :) ) and I have not seen anyone talking about formula as if it was a dirty class A drug. I expect a trawl through the outer reaches of the net might turn something up, but I'm not talking about that. I am talking about sensible, informed, official or NGO materials or training for HCPs, for mothers in the developed world and if you can link to something you thought was scaremongering that would do!

I really don't think 'formula increases the risk of XYZ' is scaremongering (as long as it's true) unless XYZ is something like 'growing two heads' or 'making a baby hate your guts' - but like I said, maybe my scaremonger calibration is way out.

Does anyone know when the questions will be answered?

later this week snowy

We are all individuals with individual feelings and experiences thanks very much.

Mila: excellent point.

BUT Tabouleh's comment:

I certainly feel that BFing mothers judge and look down on FFing mothers.

rather spoils the party, not? Or is it only FFs who are individuals? And BFs are all horribile bullies who have nothing to do other than form opinions on other mothers?

IMVHO some FFs are paranoid and see me whipping a tit out as a personal insult.

Well, it's not.In fact it's got sweet FA to do with anyone else how I feed my baby.

Nice to know we're all against the unethical marketing of FF tho!

TCOB - I have already corrected that statement which should have included "some" in it.

Well good luck to Mike Brady in working out what he is supposed to be answering. 12 pages and I can see lots of statements but not many questions

I doubt he'll see it. MN have apparently sent him a selection of Qs. So much for a webchat .

Sorry Tabouleh - sleep is a distant memory in my household at the moment

The OP does say it's a Q&A rather than a webchat Ceilidhgirl.

Yeah, that's not what people asked for, though . Maybe he's scared of the vipers ?

He has seen it, although last time I saw him say that there were far less responses. I don't think he's worried, but he could have met his match lol

Do you think he would really have 'met his match', confuddled?

I think the arguments used against his very appearance on Mumsnet (right back at the beginning of the thread) and the comments about the campaigning work of Baby Milk Action are quite poor stuff.

I have asked for examples of the scaremongering and extremist thinking they are said to use, and no one ever comes up with anything (a couple of posters on here have said things that were not liked - and later clarified and retracted - but that's not what I mean).

It's hard to have a debate which goes

• 'I dislike anti-formula extremism and scaremongering so this Q&A is a Bad Thing'

• 'OK, anti-formula extremism would indeed be a bad thing - can we have examples?

*'there's a photo I don't like at the website'

• 'nothing in the photo or its story seems to be untrue. Can we have more examples of this scaremongering and extremism?'

• 'boohoo - aggression, bullying, patronising...'

• 'sorry 'bout that...can we have some examples of scaremongering and extremism?'

• 'formula is great stuff and I had to use it. You'd think it was a dirty class A drug...'

• 'no one is saying formula should be banned and of course it's needed...can we have examples etc etc etc?'

And so on.

Argument and debate rarely changes anyone's mind. If anything it's likely to make views more entrenched. I'm not sure what Tiktok's last post will achieve other than to annoy the people who disagree with her even more.

I dunno, Ceidlihgirl. I do change my mind about things after argument and debate, if I find the arguers and debaters convincing. Is that not part of being adult and open-minded?

I accept that my last post is unlikely to do anything but annoy the people who disagree with me, and, somehow, I can live with that. I get tired of being accused of supporting scaremongering etc.

I know. Your frustration is almost palpable in your posts. This whole subject area is about the psychology of persuasion really isn't it? What BMA are tring to combat is the marketing tactics of formula companies. Do these companies win sales by arguing and getting people's backs up? No, they are subtle and appeal to people in a way they barely notice. If BMA or other critics of the formula industry want mothers who formula feed to hear their messages then perhaps it needs to be done in a gentler way. Then again, maybe it's not UK formula feeding mothers BMA want to listen to them?

Ceilidhgirl, I don't think Baby Milk Action want UK mothers who formula feed to hear their message - it really is not directed at them,as you suggest, or at any other mothers, but at governments, NGOs, HCPs. I suppose mothers here are targeted in their roles as potential campaigners, but beyond that, Baby Milk Action is not in the area of encouraging individual mothers to breastfeed/not formula feed. They just don't do it.

It's nothing to do with the psychology of persuasion in the way you mean...at least not much. Breastfeeding supporters have nothing to sell, and women do not need 'persuading' to bf. Breastfeeding needs to be enabled so the women that want to do it or who want to consider it find the support and information to do it, and to do it happily for as long as they wish.

The Nestle boycott is amazingly successful - a worldwide, long-lasting bit of consumer resistance that has reached many organisations and individuals. The fact that some people disagree with it in principle, and disagree with Baby Milk Action, because they think it's all part of the demonisation of formula (I think that's why they disagree with it - it's not clear from this thread) is a price to pay, I suppose, for any campaign. You won't bring everyone on board with you.

I think what you are suggesting is that if we (as a society) want more women to breastfeed, then any complaints about about the (unethical) tactics of the formula companies should be subtle and gentle and not too loud - so instead of complaining we should copy the formula manufaturers subtle and gentle tactics? Because we get people's backs up if we complain too loudly?

Am I reading you right?