What would a bf culture look like?

[MoonFaceMama]

We live in an ff culture. How would you imagine the alternative to look?

I'll start with an obvious one.

It would be the norm for babies to be bf in public. There would be no snearing/leering because everyone would know that feeding babies are what boobs are for.

I am not from the UK but I 23 months ago when I had ds I thought bf was/is the "norm". I saw people bf everywhere I went, most of my friends bf, I was on MN, so got a lot of support here. I felt the need to continue because I wanted to but also because I thought it was what I was supposed to do.

I was proud to bf and proud I was doing the best for my baby. I'm in the SE (surrey).

Yeah, I used a cover when out and about quite a bit of the time, for various reasons (baby distracted, wanting baby to be close and warm and me to be warm and was much, much easier to use and see the baby than a pashmina or muslin. Also, I was sexually assaulted as a teen and - well, I shouldn't need to explain. I bf for 13 months and I'm proud of it and I felt if I chose to ff at all that I would have failed as a mother.

So, my experience here in the UK was that this is a bf culture... and quite a lot of pressure to do so. Of course, PILs and my parents are all overseas so we could hang up the phone if one of them bleated on about something we thought was wrong, so we didn't have that bit.

Trillian i think the point about a bf culture is that there would be so much support and knowledge about bf in the general populas that "failure to bf" would be virtually unknown. After all many women who ff do so because they were given crap info or not enough support. I'm trying to figure out what we as a society would need to do to enable every woman who wants to bf to do so. (i've made am earlier post on this too ) I think this is why molly says there would be no need for support groups. Everyone would be the support.

Spiritmum. I am sorry that you have been made to feel that way. I think one of the problems that our current culture has is that some groups use bf as some sort of stick to beat people with. If instead bf was just what we did then a) you would have recieved all the support you needed to bf all your children and b) if you were one of the few who have a physical problem that ment you were unable to bf everyone would understand that this was the case. There would be no room for awfull judgey ideas like not caring or not trying hard enough (both of which i have seen on here )

Re little girls feeding dolls. I don't see why not. A bf culture would mean the reclaiming of breasts as for feeding, rather than any sexual connotation. So i certainly can't see a problem with a pre pubescent girl playing at bf. Or a boy. After all if he grew up really wanting to bf he could!

boobmeister you are so right. :)

In that vein, there would be more staring at bfing in public, not less. You'd never be able to bf without someone's child peering closely at your nipples because everyone would encourage their natural curiousity and think it was a vital part of their education.

MFM, the problem is that no amount of support would have changed my circumstances. What happened with dd1 is in the past now which is why I don't want to rehash everything, but when people used to say to me, 'if you'd had more support you'd have carried on' I felt even worse. It had nothing to do with crap info.

With ds I had to make a choice because one of my other children was sick. Ds had a tongue tie which the hospital refused to cut so every feed was agony. I needed to look after dd2 so there wasn't any other option.

Spiritmum, i am sorry to hear of the terrible time you had. I really hope this thread hasn't caused you any distress.

I must make clear though that to me support for bf is more than just the right information. If bf were valued we would move earth to enable it.

Look what people will do for their career. Move to the other end of the country (or planet) leaving behind friends and family. Train for years. Work all the hours god sends. Buy child care. And all of this is aided by goverments who fall on unemployment figures. We don't collectivly say just do anything that pays. Because we know it's about more than just money. It's about empowerment and status.

Now i respect your privacy and don't want to rake over your personal circumstances. But if money were no object? If people were tireless in their willingness to help in any way?

But of course we don't live in that fairytale vision. We live in this world which seeks to undermine womens knowledge, confidence and power, for profit.

In these circumstances many women do not have a choice re bf/ff as your story demostrates.

No one should ever be made to feel bad for ff. But every one should be angry about the undermining of bf.

But MFM, from what you have said... people would be made to feel horrible for ff if this were the case. Already as it is now, I never wanted ds to be seen with a bottle (of expressed breast milk - which he only accepted for 2 months of his life anyway) in public for fear that someone would see it and think "tsk tsk, why isn't she just bf?" I felt fantastic when grannies and women would come over to me while I was feeding in public and give me compliments about bf. Thumbs up, "well done", "way to go"...etc.

I was in utter agony with bleeding nipples, mastitis, thrush...etc for the first 16 weeks. Finally, silverettes stayed over my nipples for the rest of the time until he was about 10 months and that helped.

Again, I speak as someone who has bf and is very supportive of bf.

Hate to say it, but I think society is always going to be judgemental of individuals and their choices - that's just the way things are ...

Would be interesting to hear what happens in Norway - they arguably have a BF culture where BF is seen as the norm, very high rates (80% at 6 months I think?). I wonder how FF is seen there?

I would guess it would vary from town to town, village to village, family to family.... just like everywhere.

I suspect that if almost everyone BF, if you saw someone FFing you would tend to think "I wonder what went wrong?" rather than "selfish cow".

I think this is a real problem. I'm struggling to get my head round it tbh. I certainly wouldn't want ff's to feel bad. And i think the boobmiester has a good point.

But i also can't acquies (sp) to letting lots of women "fail" at bf (terrible term, sorry) in order that others might feel better. Especialy when i think so many of the latter wanted to bf and were let down.

Edgar earlier stated figures of 70 percent initiation. So can we take that as a starting point for those that wish to bf? Then lets add some on to compensate for those who don't initiate because they had a rough time with a previous dc (which obv wouldn't have happened in a bf culture ) and a few more for those who never consider bf because they've never known anyone else do it (reason, ditto). And so we're joining the norwegens with bf rates in the 80's. (though we could better that if we could wipe out body issues etc)

So that difference, fifty odd percent, enabled to bf for as long as they wished. On top of the twenty odd percent who currently do. It may make me callous but i think i would take that deal even if we were unable to iron out the awefull judgeyness to ff's. I would hope we could eradicate it though.

As it stands some people judge. They judge ff's without knowing if they ff by choice or because bf support failed them. If the latter category didn't exist surely that would be better? It's one thing to be judged from the standpoint of wanting to be where you are, and feeling confidant in that. But another altogether to be judged when you didn't even want to be there.

Blargh. I'm talking round in circles now.

anne yes! That's what i mean! Thankyou!

from what I know from friends with family out there because FF is so uncommon there is relatively little stigma associates with it as people assume it isn't out of choice i.e the mother or baby must be ill/genuinely unable to BF.
Rather than over here where the assumption is that the mother couldn't be bothered/didn't try hard enough/isn't informed enough.

boobmeister I recently talked with a Norwegian woman about bfing and she said they found English women talking about choosing to bf or ff absolutely incomprehensible. As far as she was concerned, bfing was just something you did. But she also said that all that lovely maternity leave was geared towards the middle class, so presumably women who didn't qualify and had to work with no support would ff earlier.

From my Swedish experience, very little stigma with ff, or with topping up with the occasional bottle. If the default position is breastfeeding, then people will assume that anyone bottlefeeding has a genuine reason and will regard them with sympathy. And in Sweden, maternity leave is not limited to the middle classes.

Yeah that makes sense!

Actually I find the whole choice thing a bit baffling too. The parenting magazines seem to present BF as if it was a lifestyle choice, like choosing the sort of pram you want. In reality - and thanks in part to the relentless formula promotion in said parenting magazines - most women have no such choice ...

yes wot, steep and cory! That's what i was trying to get at!

Boobmeister i completely know what you mean. I have heard lots of peoples reasons for ff and tbh i'm yet to hear one that sounds like a real choice to me.

And in Sweden, maternity leave is not limited to the middle classes.

? where is mat leave limited thus?

See steepapproach's post above. I did wonder how that worked? Do you have any more info sa?

FF would not be frowned on but sympathised with, as people would realise it simply wasn't a choice for the people involved.

moonfacemama all ff mums do not all fall into the two categories you set out ("ff by choice or because bf support failed them"). There are plenty of mums who don't just think that they're unable to ebf for a variety of physical reasons, they know they are. By conservative estimates that's 1% of women, by other estimates it's closer to 5%, but either way that is not actually a small number. Even at 1% it's larger than the percentage of the population who has type 1 diabetes, for example, or multiple sclerosis. When someone explains that they have one of these issues, people don't tend to assume they're either lying or misinformed.

I just had to ask about your earlier post re: children playing at bf. I am a combo feeder myself and think it's lovely to see children "feed" their dolls and teddies by holding them to their breasts. But I'm very confused by this remark: "... i certainly can't see a problem with a pre pubescent girl playing at bf. Or a boy. After all if he grew up really wanting to bf he could!"

Maybe I should give up trying to convince you that some adult women genuinely can't breastfeed no matter how much they want to - if you believe that men can if they "really want to", then you will certainly think that my hypoplasia is just a poor excuse! Any chance you can clarify this for me? I'm baffled!

I certainly don't think that your condition is a "poor excuse".

I did briefly mention earlier about conditions that mean women are physically unable to bf. Tbh i have tiptoed round this issue (though it has been on my mind throughout this thread) as i know nothing about such conditions (and mn on my phone while feeding or pushing a buggy) i haven't had chance to get to the computer and google it out, i decided i wouldn't say too much as i'd rather say nothing than say something untrue. In hind sight i'd have been better off being upfront about my ignorance.

I didn't realise hypoplasia was more common than diabetes and i am that after six months hanging about on these boards i haven't seen it discussed more. I recall having seen it mentioned by name once before, and now i remember it was your name on the post.

Re men lactating, it has been known for men to induce lactation. But this is why i said "if they really want to" as it's bloody hard work and not something i would suggest people do unless they have a burning need! I suppose that was ment as part statement of fact, part in jest, and part feminist statement.

Cloudy i really hope i haven't caused offence or hurt. And if you have any links to info on this that you would be kind enough to share i'd be gratefull. But don't worry if not. I promise to look it up next time we it some coal delivered for the computer.

DD aged 6 would not come home from school after doing project at school on what babies need and tell me babies need bottles and have to have me remind her that babies drink milk from breasts and her go eeeewwww. I then have to remind her that she was breastfed till 3.

Edgar I think it's not that Mat leave is limited as such it's just that many can't afford to accept the statutory minimum in the UK. Many therefore return to work quite soon after birth and either don't BF at all or stop before the recommended 6 months.

There would be very little need for breastfeeding consultants as we would all be experts. If you were having trouble, you'd mention it to your mum, gran, neighbour, friend, nursery teacher, whatever and get a wealth of experience, encouragement and support instantly. Makes me very sad that that was not the case with me

Small town New Zealand is a BF culture. Where I genuinely feel I can feed anywhere I like, where the kids from school don't laugh and point when they see me (teacher on maternity leave) feeding in the cafe, where the cafe owner brings my drink over for me and puts it within reach, where I can pop into my partners place of work and feed in his work lunch room if caught out on the hop. No one thinks it odd. My boob and baby were pictured on the front page of the local paper celebrating The Big Latch On just a few weeks ago. Come join us!