Same formula, different country, different rules!

[PaulineCampbellJones]

I have needed to buy 9 month old DD some Aptamil while we are away in Spain as she has turned into a milk monster. The rules on the package are completely different to the ones on UK packets. Use mineral water so you don't have to boil the water!
Both are a complete no no and have seen many thread debates on this. Are we just living in a nanny state or is there a reason?
I will continue to boil water though as don't want to subject DD to too much change.

I would have thought that the formula companies would prefer really complex and difficult rules about making up formula, so that people end up buying the much more expensive ready mixed stuff when they are in the many situations where they don't have immediate access to centrifuges, boiling water, something to then cool it down again so the baby can drink it, and so on and so on...?

I'm also interested in the differences around teh world - interesting OP and what skihorse has said. I mean teh Dutch always strike me as very sensible IYSWIM.

Mind you they have an unexpectedly high mortality rate for newborns.

Hmmmm no idea then.

These guidelines are from about 2006 I think.

In 2005 the World Health Assembly (WHA) of WHO requested the Organization to develop such guidelines in order to minimize the risk to infants.

On a previous thread you said, skihorse

"The WHO guidelines were drawn up in the 70's and 80's - in response to babies dying in 3rd world countries due to lack of clean water and mothers being too poor to buy formula, so diluting what they had and the babies dying of starvation."

So thank-you medical professionals everywhere for trying making me feel like a witch when I have clean water and plenty of money for formula. Thank you for comparing my situation to that of a woman living on less than a dollar a day ."

Skihorse you appear to be attacking me personally?

If you do not agree with me sharing with people here on MN this info then you can:

• hide the thread/ignore me (because you are happy with what you are doing)

• EXPLAIN why you disagree - if it is because you think the preventative measures to mitigate against risk are disproportionate to that risk then fine - that's your opinion - it will be useful if you could tell other MNers that without having to post to say things like this:

accuse me of "aggressive whining"

"Basically I reserve the right not to be patronised by you - lest I need to start a thread entitled "Support for FF's and those persecuted by Tabouleh"."

"The country I'm living in does not follow Tabouleh's rules."

I don't understand the argument here it seemed like a perfectly normal conversation and tabouleh's question in response to skihorse seemed not extraordinary.

Feeling a bit TBH.

ISNT - skihorse has ishooooss with me from previous FF threads - she does not like me linking to the guidelines/explaining the guidelines and why I think that they are important.

I think lots of UK based people would be interested to know that in the Netherlands tap water is used - is it higher quality or they just decide that risk of infection is low?

Me too isnt. Smacks of ishoos imho.

x post

Hmmmm.

Can we talk about it anyway? I am interested.

I do think that in this country there is a tendency to work from an assumption that people have no common sense whatsoever, and the rules for everything are fixed on the assumption that eveyyone is incredibly stupid.

OTOH if formula contains potentially dangerous bacteria, which must be killed by mixing with water heated to a certain temperature, then that sounds like a good plan.

On the subject of mineral water - there was a thing a few years back which said that young children and old people should not consume it as it contains bacteria, and also generally it can have high levels of various salts.

Which isn't that surprising when you think about it - it's spring water, isn't it. It's not sterilised. It goes from the cloud, through some rocks and things, into a bottle and sealed. I would have thought that tap water in many countries would be just as clean/cleaner than that in that it has been treated to kill bugs before it goes into circulaiton.

Interesting.

Should say mineral water can contain bacteria.

Also happy to be corrected on the point of how mineral water gets to the bottle

But if it is out of the ground and into a bottle... Why is that better than tap?

I recall reading some time ago that tap is much more heavily tested for contaminants etc than mineral but am on phone so can't set about googleing now.

Yes tap water (in teh UK anyway) is lovely stuff IMO. Drinking hard water like we have here in north london is also very good for your heart.

They did another thing where they got some mineral water and some tap water and refridgerated them both and did a taste test, many people thought the tap was nicest, or said they were both nice.

We keep a jug of tap water inthe fridge and that does us!

I am very down on mineral water generally - it has been described as the marketing coup of all time, getting people to spend £££ on soemthing they can get for nest to nothing from the tap. And all that packaging going in the bin.

Anyway I digress

It would also be interesting to hear about the Dutch Health Service - here in the UK I think a lot of the advice is based around preventitive measures - if you have clinical evidence that doing a certain thing will reduce the risk then it is all our interests that this message is at least delivered because it ultimately has implications on our access to free healthcare.

So if following the WHO guidelines on preparing formula feeds means that less babies (who are fed formula) will be hospitalised - this will reduce NHS costs - then it makes sense for this information to be delivered. The choice is still with the parent whether to follow the guidelines or not but a parent's choice will not be based on reducing NHS costs.

Now the formula companies don't have to change their instructions because the information comes from elsewhere so why take the responsibility (and the cost for that matter)?

It would be interesting if the Dutch Health Service actually issue guidelines or have anything like the NHS leaflets and booklets such as the Birth to 5 book or whether such information comes from a more commercial angle similar to the Emma and Bounty packs.

I think many people in the UK do take the NHS for granted - if that means we have to be made aware of health messages because of cost implications eg - 5 a day, alcohol units, benefits of breastfeeding, making up formula and eating restrictions in pregnancy then I think fair enough - I would rather make my choice knowing the risks involved than be uninformed even though the information might make me worry.

I agree with what a previous poster (can;t recall who) said about people reacting strangely to advice about FF.
My DS has one bottle at bedtime, and I make in according to DOH guidelines. If he stays with granny, other relatives etc, I give them cartons, because they really don't get that things have changed since they had their kids. Fair enough, but when if try and explain the reasoning and research (child deaths on the continent, powder not sterile), they just laugh at me and quote the number of babies brought up by them / their mothers / grandmothers who are still alive. I just don't get this as an arguement - it's "we've always done it like this so it must be right" and really annoys me!!!
There was a time when it was thought that smoking was beneficial to health, people didn't used to wear seatbelts, does that make it ok? How many people do we know insist on putting their baby to sleep on their front because that's what their mum did?!
I'm getting a little flaming in another thread when I commented on BLW (which I follow) but again that seems to come back to "well spoonfeeding has always been good enough before so what;s the problem now?" There's no problem, but we;ve moved on a little and there are other options should you choose to follow them.
For me there's definitely alot of PNB and anxiousness in my parenting style, I admit it. But I also have a job where being up to date with research and the latest techniques so your clients get the best from you is imperitive. Why would I do any less for my child? My parenting is led by instinct and guidelines / research I have the privilege to have access to living in this country, that I can read, digest, and make my own decisions. Choosing to ignore these outright because of what your mum did in 1975 is lazy parenting IMHO.
Knowing what they do in other countries just makes me look more closely at the arguements for what I choose to do.
And ISNT completely agree re: tap water. we are so lucky that we live in a country where we have lovely safe freely available tap water. One of my friends buys litres of Evian in his weekly shop and I have never understood why!

Phew, rant over!

I don't understand why the formula can't just be pasteurised (or whatever) and then it would be completely safe. Although I do think we over do things here, particularly for older babies. Once DS was picking everything in sight up and chewing them I really couldn't be that bothered about sterilising bottles. I cleaned then in really hot, soapy water but stopped using a steriliser.

choefleur the problem is as soon as you open the can it is no longer sterile - there is no way of preventing that bar using single serve cartons.

Because it would be am expensive additional process that would eat in to their profits...that's my theory any way!

Milk (including the residue left in bottles) is an ideal breeding ground for bacteria. This is why it is suggested bottles for formula (not ebm i believe) should be sterilised). Your floor, other things baby picks up, etc, though not that clean (not in my house anyway ) doesn't feed the bacteria in the same way as milk. Some bacteria are only spread by food, eg salmonella, as contracted by a mners dc from formula and discussed in another current thread. Sorry on phone so can't link.

ah good point itsallgoingtobefine.

Couldn't they package it in "portions" - like a foiled packet of pills but with bigger compartments? It might be a slightly more expensive production process but that might be offset in all the savings of not boiling kettles left right and centre?

Then people could make it up on the go etc as well.

that is a very good idea isnt!

I'm sure they must have thought of it already...

Are cartons sold in other countries? Again, non here in Spain but formula doesn't appear to be that widely available.

There wouldn't be a need for cartons in countries which say you can make formula up with tap/mineral water.

Do you know how it's made up in Spain, Pauline? What the guidance is?

Because you can't pasteurise powders, only liquids.

The only way for a substance like powdered formula milk to be sterile is if it is manufactured in totally sterile conditions. I presume that some medicines must be, so surely it is possible. And then as you suggest package it in single serve sachets (like hot chocolate/cappucino mix etc)

Massive increase in packaging though. And potential problems with powder particles sticking to the inside of the packet in a way which doesn't happen with the scoops. Also it limits flexibility on how big a bottle you can make up at once, as because of the aforementioned stuck particle problem you wouldn't want to risk having separate packaging for each "scoopful" - therefore it would likely be packaged in 4oz and 8oz sachets, or whatever the most common bottle sizes are.

I think people might buy it occasionally for convenience but the contrast to the way it's now manufactured is too great, most people would not find it practical.