Can I have the lowdown on formula please?

[ButterpieBride]

I have a 9.5mo DD who will take a bottle of ebm or ready made formula. We got a pack of the powder today and it took ages to make up- with DD1 I'm sure we just made up six bottles with cold kettle water and used them over the day.

I don't need to sterilise the bloody bottles do I? I'm sure I read some kind of cheaty way of making up the powder that was still safe on here somewhere, but can't find it- any ideas?

Also, would giving her cows milk be really bad? my mum seems to think it would be ok, watered down and with a bit of bovril added but somehow I don't think that is the case.

How do you know when to feed them? The box says she should have three feeds a day by now- it is more than ten usually at the boob, but no idea how much she is taking.

Also...sigh. Didn't think I'd be making this post. I don't know ANY ff babies.

Tab you are doing a wonderful thing. There are some very defensive reactions to your posts. Ignore them. Lots of people are better informed thanks to you. Me for one.

anonMum2 and FunnysInTheGarden

OK so the "nasty replies" sting a bit but usually when someone has something worthwhile but not mainstream to say there will always be some strong criticism.

I can see how my posting style can come across as preaching but actually a lot of the things you 2 posters in particular have taken exception to on this thread appear to have been comments made by others?

The reason I argue back try to respond to questions is that there sometimes people misunderstand what has been said as it goes against what they have heard.

_
I really really want to settle this FRIDGE thing as I think anonMum2 and FunnysInTheGarden have both got the wrong end of the stick here.

If you haven't then FGS tell me - I am sure you will .

My major message to people that I personally would like to get across is this:

__

Absolutely best practice is make each bottle fresh with 70 degree water.

Almost as good is make bottles with 70 degree water AND STORE IN THE FRIDGE. YES THATS RIGHT THE FRIDGE.

(Provided they are cooled rapidly and stored at 4/5 deg in the fridge this is far far lower risk than making with cool water.)

__

Unfortunately the message from the guidelines/HCPs/formula companies has gone like this:

Make Fresh

Parents: Totally impractical to boil kettle, wait 30 mins (70 deg water) and cool.

Unknown source: Oh just use cool water.

Real guidelines: If you can't make fresh - make with 70 degree water, cool and store.

Why oh why oh why oh why is that message not getting through.

It is so easy to make in advance!

Look at the UK Guidelines Page 4.

__

For me personally the info on page 15 of these slides is the key.

In all cases (even making in advance) using water at 70 degrees led to a reduction in risk of more than 100,000 times - this was regardless of the time between preparation and feeding.

So these experiements shows that it is much safer to make with 70 degree water IN ADVANCE than it is to make with cool water.

__

So personally I knew I was making with 70 degree water, cooling rapidly and what temp my fridge was so I'd make up 3 bottles at a time.

The formula companies don't mention making in advance as it is not quite as safe and if the water is not 70 degrees and the milk is not stored in a fridge that is cool enough then it is a lot more risky than making up fresh.

__

anonMum2 - is any of the above news to you/of use to you wrt to your comment "my tiredness from making an average of 9 bottles the right way day and night"?

FunnysInTheGarden "Why then, generally is it wrong to keep milk in the fridge, when most mums have to do this 'in an emergency' everyday?" - Can you see that it is not "wrong" to keep in the fridge - provided the water is 70 deg and the fridge is cool enough this is almost as good as making as per on pack - and way way less risky (per the experiments) than making with cool water.

Ignoring/not read other responses.

If you are making up formula in advance you must sterilise bottles and cool the made up milk as quickly as possible.

You can't keep bottles in the fridge for a day if you haven't sterilised them, sorry. (any other situation; EBF, made up FF, carton FF etc, then no, but stored milk in the fridge needs to be a sterile as poss)

and FFS.. PLEASE don't make feeds with cooled boiled water, and especially don't keep in the fridge.

and, as always, what tabouleh and tiktok said.

OMG, don't even start with the fridge thing!

I remember stressing out so much on how fast I had to cool it down in the fridge, the times I even stupidly put it in the freezer and stood next to it thinking if I forget to take it out in time then it'll freeze up and then I'll have a screaming baby and no milk coz I have to defrost it.. really stupid, but that was me and my new-mummy-brain. Also bought a freezer bag thingy and freezer packs so I could take it out(we're always travelling or out and about). Finally, desperately trying to heat it up correctly so my son wouldn't get ill (don't know if you're aware of the other campaign on heating milk the right way. *chuckles.. I know you are.). I think if we were rich we would've just bought cartons to save my sanity - having said that, DS used to have 8oz or more at a feed so a carton wouldn't have been enough anyway. (98th percentile baby through and through!)

Sigh, nothing you say can possibly be new to me. Nothing you suggest could also possibly be quicker than how I eventually made it. I've already said, before DS was a year old, I spent all my time and effort researching it and doing it according according to the latest guidelines.

Have to correct one thing that I said though.. I didn't mean to say "Make formula milk the right way".. I meant to say "Make formula milk according to the guidelines".

For the last time, I really do support having new parent's knowing the guidelines, I was there once! But can't help challenging it based on my own experience. I just want to make sure I've made my point about most your approach (ok, so the quotes didn't happen to be yours, tab. But i have to say since I mentioned it you have toned down so much more and it no longer feels like you're attacking ppl) and how you should be more realistic etc. - you know what I mean, put things into perspective. I was one of the sufferers once from all these. Then I won't have to crash in any of your posts again. :)

Ps. I rarely put formula in the fridge in the end and found it quickler to make from scratch each time.

Anonmum
Can I ask why you find my story implausible? Not being arsey, just bemused why you don't believe it. There is no other explanation that makes sense.

I am not being judgemental when I say that it is your prerogative how you feed your baby. At he end of the day we all have our priorities and do things differently.

I did not know the guidelines had changed. If I had then my son would not have contracted salmonella. My aim on posting on these threads is to tell others so that they can make an informed decision how they want to make up their babies bottles.

Tabouleh I really appreciate what you're trying to do here. I, too, am a failed bf with both my DSs. First time, I was my own worst critic, experienced all the guilt blah blah, and this was 3 years ago so I was one of the mums making up sterile bottles of boiled water (in BPA-rich bottles too :(), adding powder to the cooled water for each feed.

Now with DS2, who is 6 weeks and ff from 5 days (minus the guilt this time), I realise the recommendations have changed and so have been making up 6oz feeds with 2oz hot water from a Thermos, 6 scoops of powder from one of those dispenser things, shaken not stirred, and then adding 4oz cooled boiled water. I thought I had it sussed for making instant feeds, until I read your comment that this quantity of water might not be enough to kill the bacteria, Tabouleh. Now I'm not sure what to do... whether to make up bottles in advance and store in fridge or carry on with my flask method.

I would be up for supporting a campaign to clarify best practice on this. I think there is too much animosity around this subject - failed bf guilt combined with anger towards formula manufacturers, plus a bit of 'Breast is best' propaganda and a touch of baby bottle taboo. I truly wish the emotion could be removed from all discussions around this. I think that's the most unhelpful aspect. Give me science any day.

Re the salmonella thing. Obviously, it's unlikely to happen to your baby, and vastly less likely if you make up feeds as per advice, but all the statistics in the world make no difference if it happens to you, do they? I'm with the other posters who can't understand why you would not do everything in your power to eliminate that risk to your baby... even if it means the cold water bottle brigade look at you like you're . But then I'm someone who wanted an epidural during DS2's birth, until they handed me a card which explained the risks - 1 in 125,000 women die from an epidural. Highly unlikely, but not a risk I was prepared to take. That's obviously the way my brain works

Also meant to say that I sometimes use water nearer 100C than 70C, but I'm weighing up the risk and assuming that it's safer to avoid the bacteria and possibly have milk with less nutritional value than the other way round.

Curse that beautiful kettle that keeps water hot for longer

I am surprised that no company has made a formula feeder's kettle which heats water for bottles to 70c, rather than boiling and waiting to cool to 70c.

ah well, so we have come to a compromise, prep the bottles at 70 degrees and then keep them in the fridge if you have to?

Incidentally tab the only thing I objected to was your 'preachy, my work here is nearly done' tone.

As i understand it they are the guidelines tab has been pointing out all along.

Tabouleh, take heart, you are doing an excellent job.

The hot water needs to make contact with the powder. FFS. I don't think it's that difficult or that anyone needs to martyr themselves with the additional work this involves... if indeed it does involve any.

I dislike the implication made by some posters that Tabouleh is a failed breastfeeder who wants to punish formula feeders.

if the kettle is keeping the water hot for too long pour the water into the bottles and leave to cool in the bottles?

i have asked around in RL - i have middle class educated friends who are all making up formula with cold water so the advice clearly isn't getting through.

ok now i have a problem!

Using dr browns bottles really helps with ds's reflux (ie he will drink more than an oz at a time), but when you make milk up as per guidelines the milk spurts out of the bottle. So I tried making them in advance using a sterilised avent bottle and transferring it to dr browns bottle, cooling quickly and keeping in fridge, but have discovered that infant gaviscon doesn't seem to work if not dissolved in hot water, and ds has been screaming the place down for the last 2 nights.

The only way we can manage it is to use the method bettybutterknife describes (2oz hot -add formula - swirl/shake + 4oz coooled boiled).I hope this is ok,because we are really struggling here.

Helen
This is the daft thing. The formula manufacturers seem to advise different methods in different countries. No idea why.

I agree that the problem is that no one wants to take up this cause.

HJ
Do you reheat the milk before using? Or could you make the bottles up with 2/3 70degrees water then add the gaviscon to the last 1/3 hot water before mixing?

Hazeyjane - try mixing the gaviscon to the water first - and use a "swirling" action and it should dissolve - then add the formula?

Thanks for those that have posted supporting me in my awareness increasing campaign.

Will ponder on setting up a blog or something. Feel free anyone to CAT me.

To those who feel "preached at"/"upset" etc - I am truely sorry . That is not my intention at all.

I post now from the peaceful position of a DS who is 2.11 and not FF anymore - so I am not on that wavelength of worrying about a little baby and this is theoretical to me now and not RL IYSWIM.

The risks are of course low and we have good healthcare in this country.

Enjoy your babies!

I think the different instructions relate to the legislation in different countries.

Just how there are drugs sold in the US which are not approved as safe in th UK and vice versa.

Hazeyjane - Alf was a real reflux baby, so I had the whole exploding Dr Brwons bottle and gaviscon thing going on.

I a afraid to admit that after a couple of nights of being expolded on, it was goodbye powder and hello ready made. Its not expensive if you are very strict and dont add up how much it costs :) . Seriously though, it was the only way I could get the Dr Browns bottle to work - room temperature ready made.

With regards the gaviscon - I never had an issue with it desolving, I just made sure I shook it really, really well. Is it possible your not mixing it well enough due to mat shaking the bottle wekk enough due to the exploding bottle issue?