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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Can I have the lowdown on formula please?

123 replies

ButterpieBride · 03/09/2010 22:48

I have a 9.5mo DD who will take a bottle of ebm or ready made formula. We got a pack of the powder today and it took ages to make up- with DD1 I'm sure we just made up six bottles with cold kettle water and used them over the day.

I don't need to sterilise the bloody bottles do I? I'm sure I read some kind of cheaty way of making up the powder that was still safe on here somewhere, but can't find it- any ideas?

Also, would giving her cows milk be really bad? my mum seems to think it would be ok, watered down and with a bit of bovril added Hmm but somehow I don't think that is the case.

How do you know when to feed them? The box says she should have three feeds a day by now- it is more than ten usually at the boob, but no idea how much she is taking.

Also...sigh. Didn't think I'd be making this post. I don't know ANY ff babies.

OP posts:
sheffi · 08/09/2010 21:32

I switched my son to formula when he was about 4 weeks old. I used a steam steriliser until he was 1. However I sterilised the bottles before each feed as it only takes a few minutes. If you boil the kettle and then fill the sterilized bottle with boiling water it only takes a few minutes to cool under a cold running tap. I did stop sterilising his bottles when I switched him to cows milk. I have been told that this is incorrect by the health visitor. If you are giving milk in a bottle then the bottle should be sterilised. Hope that helps

tapan · 08/09/2010 21:37

i'll have a look at that thanks tabouleh and yeah i realise you're trying to inform parents which is great - you taught me!

but what's the point of having a sterile powder scoop when the powder is not sterile? personally i just aimed to not breathe on the scoop and if it did get caked in powder from moisture, i'd just wash it with hot water and washing up liquid.

anonMum2 · 08/09/2010 21:46

tabouleh, in the most polite way because I hate arguments - you really have to tone down a little if you want people to heed your advise.

In response to your question, if you actually took time to read my last post, I did explain how and why.

tabouleh · 08/09/2010 22:10

anonMum2 "I'm just trying to ascertain the validity of this sad/serious case before I start spreading it to all my mum-friends that this is the case. Thanks."

If you want info about this then you can google or have a look at the things which I (and others) have linked to from here.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean about toning down?

The guidance is there - I am raising awareness of it on MN. MN recently amended their bottled feeding section due to my request and I am hoping to get some other MNers to suggest further improvements.

When I see Qs on this topic, if I have time I reply. Smile.

tapan but what's the point of having a sterile powder scoop when the powder is not sterile?

OK - hope this helps:

Powder not being a sterile product means that it has not been subject to a process like for example pastuerisation which is what happens to cows milk as in (milk for your tea). It does not mean that it definitely contains bacteria before the packet opens - just that it might. Also as soon as you open the packet bacteria can get in.

This is why it is important to make the formula with water which is 70 degrees. Experiments have shown that this temp should kill bacteria within the powder.

If you put a damp scoop into the powder then the water will react with some of the powder and make small amounts of liquid milk - these will hang around for ages and bacteria will multiply like mad.

tapan · 08/09/2010 22:17

nope, that doesn't help. it doesn't answer my question at all!

FunnysInTheGarden · 08/09/2010 22:19

sorry LR I was not here to shield you from the inevitable flames.........

Tabouleh do you take the rest of the many many issues and problems you come across in your life this seriously?

I actually struggle to comprehend the replies to this thread. We are not all stupid. Some of us take calculated risks, because we have many other things to worry about.

IMO those calculated risks in this instance are so tiny as not to be worried about.

You may note that we are only a tiny proportion of all the women across the years who have fed our babies milk. Is anyone seriously suggesting that in previous years (5 years ago the guidelines were different) dozens of babies died due to formula being mixed incorrectly.

Maybe, and here's a novel idea, SMA etc are trying to cover their backs against any possible litigation, should a baby fall ill and the finger be pointed at them?

tapan · 08/09/2010 22:20

in case i was unclear, why, after adding powder to a bottle of hot water, and therefore getting a scoop caked in powder, is it necessary to sterilise said scoop rather than just give it a good wash? of course i'm not talking about putting the wet scoop back into the pack!

tabouleh · 08/09/2010 23:40

OK I see tapan - I personally decided to sterilise the scoops - I just popped them in my milton sterilising tub. (I did not say that it was necessary).

FunnysInTheGarden - I do find it Hmm that you keep returning to this thread when you obviously find it (in particular my posts) so objectionable.

Why can't you just say "I think it is very low risk and not worth bothering about" - if that is what you think? Why all this Shock Hmm about this thread?

I am not saying that anyone is stupid.

I have not said that dozens of babies are dying.

I do wish you would read some of the things I've linked to and explain what it is in them that you disagree with.

There are people here on MN who do appreciate my posts on this subject and therefore I shall remain.

My aim is to make awareness of the guidelines more widespread and to try to explain why the guidelines are there - so that people can choose what to do from a position of knowledge.

Yes the risk is small - but many people are not aware of the risk at all. The risk is larger for newborns - but is a kind of russian roulette (with low odds admittedly) - however there is an easy way to mitigage against this risk, should parents so choose.

You called me (or people like me) "failed BFers" - hell yeah that is what I am - you hit the nail right on the head there - thanks for that Sad. Having failed to BF a DS with latching issues/jaundice/weak suck/ possible tongue tie/diagnosed failure to thrive I was GUTTED that he was not going to be receiving the natural food for him that I had planned. So once I found out the guidelines and even the small possibility of death/serious illness from formula I made sure that the formula was made with water which was 70 degrees C. MY CHOICE. (As he got older I followed the guidelines for making in advance).

tiktok · 08/09/2010 23:48

Funny - the guidelines come from WHO and from the European food safety organisation - I cant remember the exact name and it's too late to go googling :)

They don't come from SMA, or anyone else who makes formula, who had to be dragged by legislation to ensure this information was included on their packaging.

The guidance was introduced after enquiries into the deaths of babies revealed they had succumbed to infection from the powder. I don't think anyone has suggested that dozens of babies died - it could be a handful, it could be dozens, it could be scores or more, no one can know because babies who died of infections caused by bacteria known to be in formula powder will not have had their deaths actually linked to the powder. Common sense indicates that the risk of death is not high in the UK and Europe, but there is a marked risk of infection - ff babies are at a higher risk of infection anyway than bf babies.

It doesn't really matter what your opinion on the risks is - you say it's 'tiny' without any indication you have even read the links or the background. The facts will still stand, whatever your opinion.

You are dismissive, and that's your right. What is not right is to suggest that the risks are 'tiny' and to imply people who are concerned about this are somehow taking life too seriously. Tablouleh's posts are unsensational, non-dramatic and factual. She does not deserve your eye-rolling and sneering.

MmeLindt · 09/09/2010 08:17

Anonmum2
Samonella is a foodborn illness. It cannot be caught by the person putting things in their mouth. It is transmitted when a person who has salmonella neglects to wash their hands after using the toilet, then handling food.

Since DS was purely ff, it could only be from the formula.

The powder was not tested - this took place 6 years ago before the WHO recommendations were in place and widely known. I only realized years later how he could have contracted the infection, it was until then a mystery. Even the woman from Environmental Health did not know about the formula risk.

It is the only thing that fits. He was not weaned so not eating any other foods. He was not in a nursery or in contact with others. At the time we had recently moved house and had not made friends or attended any kind of playgroup. The only people he was in contact with was the family, none of whom were infected.

I don't mind answering questions like this, as it may help prevent others going through this and worse. If you decide not to heed this advice - and it is not me and Tab making it up - then that is your prerogative.

lunar rose and Funnyinthegarden
No one has said that you are stupid. Or that you don't love your babies. It is every parent's decision to make how they feed their babies. Heaping scorn on Tab's head because she feels strongly about this is nasty. The OP asked for advice and Tab went out of her way to give advice, providing links that you have obviously not even taken the time to read otherwise you would know that it is not the water, but the formula powder that may be infected. Perhaps you should inform yourselves before making smart comments.

jemjabella · 09/09/2010 09:27

tabouleh - I think the work you're doing is fab, keep it up :)

pommedeterre · 09/09/2010 09:33

I hate the 'they used to do it differently' argument because I'm not sure it WAS that different.
Feeds were stored but not for very long and feeds were made up with just boiled water. My mum ff two in the early 80's and she was horrified to hear that some of my friends make up feeds out and about with cooled water and powder.
Funnys and Lunar - You are right in that we all take calculated risks (I do store feeds in the fridge for example) BUT what you are arguing is just not true I'm afraid. There is a risk to the powder - it is not sterile.

Bubbles1066 · 09/09/2010 10:28

With the formula sticking to the scoop thing, Aptamil (others might too, I don't know) has a storage clip on the lid of the box for your scoop - you're not meant to put it back in the powder directly. Not fail safe as bits of moist powder night still fall in but better then putting a wet scoop back in the powder. And like others have said, I have several scoops and wash them between uses (I don't sterilise them, just wash in hot water with my bottles).

ihearttc · 09/09/2010 11:34

Im probably being really dense (am 5 months pregnant so can blame baby brain lol!) but how exactly is the advice about making up and storing feeds any different to what it was 5 years ago because I honestly cannot see any difference. I totally get that the WHO recommendation is to make up each feed as you give it to the baby but on the link above it says that they can be made as directed with water that has cooled for 30 mins and then kept in the fridge for short periods of time.

DS is nearly 6 and this was how I made up his feeds then so apart from them now saying that its best to make them up as you need them I don't see what the difference is?

DS was a month premature and after spending nearly 2 weeks in hospital trying to get him to BF I gave him formula so am fully expecting this one to be the same. DS actually fed like a BF baby in that he had lots of little tiny feeds rather than bigger ones for about the first 6 months so there was only about 1.5-2 hours between feeds if I was lucky (HV/GP ok'd this btw!)so I have to admit I pre-prepared all his feeds in advance and kept them in the fridge for a few hours because there is no way Id have actually have had time to make up each individual feed...he took 30 mins to take 2 oz so by the time he'd have finished it was virtually time to start preparing another one!

And no Im not making excuses and Im not lazy but I just cannot see the difference in what we were told to do then and now. Nearly 6 years on I feel as though Ive forgotten everything so this thread has been very very useful.

tapan · 09/09/2010 19:57

bubbles - aptamil's what i use too. my point is that scoop can get so caked from steam that you either a)wash it halfway through adding powder to single bottle (highly inconvenient), b) tap as much off as you can, the result being powder everywhere and leaky bottles, or c) inaccurate measurements

FunnysInTheGarden · 09/09/2010 22:46

OK, so have any of you (with obvious exceptions) ever;

  1. FF a newborn baby

  2. had a young FF baby in nursery/at a childminder full time or even part time?

If not, then you are not equipped to comment on the real life practicalities of FF.

BTW I will not stop posting because some people find my views unpalatable. FWIW I find it objectionable that Tabouleh is some self styled FF guru. Most irritating.

tabouleh · 09/09/2010 23:41

Funny I have FF a 4 week old baby (my DS) and he started nursery at 7 months old 3 days a week?

Why?

I just wonder whether you've maybe got the wrong end of the stick wrt to the this - are you aware that there are guidelines about making bottles in advance if it's not possible to make fresh?

(The formula packets don't mention this so instead when people realise making fresh is very difficult rather than making with 70 degree water, cooling and refridgerating they instead make with cool water.)

Hmm I am not a FF guru! I just answer posts when I see them and would like to promote awareness of safer formula feeding.

It is not you views that I find unpalatable more the way you seem to be attacking me!

ihearttc - I don't know what the guidelines were 5/6 years ago but I think that they did not mention 70 degrees and they suggested making in advance as that was what everyone did? Presumably that was with hot/warm water of an unspecified temp?

Where as now they say 70 degrees and they say make fresh if possible - but explain how to make in advance.

ButterpieBride - I realise that your OP has been a bit lost in all this.

One of your Q's was about when to feed them and how much. There's not much info about but FF on demand is recommended in this UNICEF leaflet.

MmeLindt · 10/09/2010 00:26

Funny
My dd was ff from 6 weeks (ish). Can't remember exactly. DS was ff from birth.

Neither were in childcare while ff.

I know that the recommended preparation of bottles is a faff. And require a bit of forward thinking.

IMO, after seeing my 5mth old baby writhing in pain due to tummy cramps, I would accept the faff and do it the recommended way. Or if baby really cannot wait then use preprepared cartons.

I don't think that Tab is settign herself up ad a ff guru. In case you haven't noticed, the resident bf
Guri tiktol has posted in support of Tab.

MmeLindt · 10/09/2010 00:27

Apologies for typos. Posting on phone after 1/2 bottle of Rose.

Hazeyjane · 10/09/2010 11:03

I ffed all 3 of my dcs ('failed breastfeeder' - is there a club? do i get a badge?!)

I made up milk with 70 degree water either per feed (using a flask), to be stored in the fridge (cool quickly in iced water) or used cartons.

I think just about every hcp who has advised me about making up bottles has said that you must not make up bottles in the old fashioned (storing in the fridge) way, and a few have said that the best,easiest and safest(!) way is to make up with cooled boiled water.

If it wasn't for people like Tiktok and Tabouleh linking to the relevant leaflets, then you would have to rely on the conflicting advice of hcp or the sparse info on the side of the formula tin.

Is there a campaign for consistent advice on the safest way to make up formula feeds?

tabouleh · 10/09/2010 15:59

Is there a campaign for consistent advice on the safest way to make up formula feeds?

I would love for there to be a campaign, I don't feel I really have the time/energy to launch one but if a few people wanted to band together maybe we could start a blog?

In the meantime I am raising awareness on MN.

Baby Milk Action campaigns to help protect FF babies and BF babies.

I am hoping MN will invite Mike Brady of Baby Milk Action to do a webchat.

Add your support to this thread if you think this is a good idea.

It would be good to work with Baby Milk Action on something like this.

Hazeyjane · 10/09/2010 19:33

I would be happy to get involved in a campaign, help with a blog.

As you say it would be great to do something with BMA, although I think that a lot of people assume that they are 'anti formula' (I know I didBlush).

I think it would be interesting if everyone asked their mw/hv about the best way to make up a bottle and see what they said.

anonMum2 · 10/09/2010 22:07

Sorry to be a killjoy again.. I'm still not convinced. MmeLindt's case is just not enough for me to sound credible enough telling people about it.

Even though I followed to the letter this very complex method of making up milk feeds, I still don't quite see that the benefit outweighs the risk, most importantly by seeing how everyone around me who didn't do it and that their children had less S+D than my DS (Yes.... I know this doesn't prove anything). Even though I made it according to guidelines, DS continued to have sickness + diarrhoea on and off despite all my effort(hence that time we sent the formula back to Hipp for testing), generally he was still a very healthy baby. Up to when he was weaned properly at 7 months, he was having between 8-12 bottles of formula milk per day. He just fed non-stop. All I can remember up to 7 months of his life was me pondering about how I can improve on making his milk right, and FAST. Screaming baby, anyones? A lot of my time was just spent making milk. I was knackered from it. What's a new mum to do when you have to look after a hungry baby, except to make up sodding milk bottles all the time!

Now thinking back, my tiredness from making an average of 9 bottles the right way day and night, took all the energy from me. I was lacking sleep enough as it was have a hyper baby. It just seems crazy and slightly unreasonable to me now - how due to my obsession making milk right meant that my tiredness and lack of sleep caused me to be far more prone to neglecting him(due to ill health and tiredness. I was ill so much due to lack of rest and worrying), falling asleep whilst looking after him, having accidents such as tripping down the stairs when carrying him, dropping him etc.

I just don't want another mum to be as miserable as I was because I was, frankly, frightened for my DS's life over the formula milk issue, and miserable because I spent so much of time time making milk. All because of reading many articles and forums such as this one, when there are probably many more risks that I'm taking just by spending so much of my extremely precious little time and effort I had left on this. Which is the reason why I find it important to put my views on this across, just so parents know the guidelines, but also another parent's view who has followed it and wishes to challenge it.

I'm definitely not against following the guidelines and wish that everyone would if possible. What makes me want to put all this into perspective is how most the articles and posts on MN have been a bit too accusing, judgemental and sounding like it's the end of your baby's life if you don't follow it! Also, 'parents are lazy if they don't follow it..' or 'If you decide not to heed this advice...then that is your prerogative.' sort of thing, puts me of slightly. I just don't sense you really 'care' for the welfare of other's babies or parents, rather just sounds like you're being self-righteous, judgemental and how you know so much more than they do, either from experience or from reading statistics. I could be completely wrong, I hope I am, but it's just how the tone of it all comes across. Hence all the nasty replies that come back to you. Perhaps mums just like to have a good argument natter. Wink

FunnysInTheGarden · 10/09/2010 22:39

anonMum2 you have just summarised, far more comprehensively than me, my exact point.

I find most of the posts on here, judgemental and patronising to say the least.

So if the default way to prep milk is to make it at 70 degrees and then keep the bottles in the fridge, in the event of an emergency? Then I have an emergency everyday when DS2 goes to his CM.

Why then, generally is it wrong to keep milk in the fridge, when most mums have to do this 'in an emergency' everyday?

The comparisons to leaving your children in the room with a rabid dog and also being called 'lazy' are most rude.

Incidentally, I don't give a shit if tiktok has posted to support tabouleh. In what way is that of any relevance?

I know us failed BF's are supposed to bow down to the might of those who feed their babies only from their own bodies, but really don't think that the opinion of a BF guru holds any more weight than the opinions of us mere mortals.

FunnysInTheGarden · 10/09/2010 22:42

oh, and I for one love a good argument Grin

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