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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Milupa's "support" line...

57 replies

hunkermunker · 25/08/2005 21:58

Caligula said she wants to get this line regulated/taken down/some transparency shed on what they're saying/doing (or words to that effect).

So, who else would like to try similar? Posts containing "Boden, number 4, yawn or feminine itching soothers" need not appear on this thread, please. If you're not interested, go elsewhere

OP posts:
Hattie05 · 27/08/2005 21:43

Charleypops, all my midwives recommended Aptamil. I used it for dd when i was at work, and so have zillions of other babies been brought up healthily on this milk.
Please don't worry xx

Roxswood · 27/08/2005 21:43

Its just not right to allow them to promote a product that will have a harmful effect on a mother child breastfeeding relationship.

(Note that I didn't say it would harm your child!!!)

When formula companies are allowed to aggressively market their products breastfeeding rates fall dramatically, and then baby health problems such a gastroenteritis increase.
Formula companies underhand tactics and outrageous marketing claims have led to the death of thousands if not millions of children worldwide. Of course the risks of your child suffering harm from being formula fed in this country are low, but unfortunately people in third world countries are profoundly vulnerable to advertising practices as they see western life as being better than their own and so strive to be like us. But they don't have the access to clean water like we do, so can not possibly formula feed safely. Its not right to allow them to advertise when time has shown this increases infant death!

Janh · 27/08/2005 21:45

I'm wondering why formula is so expensive - it's only dried milk after all, I was glancing at it in Sainsbos today and it's about £7 a tub - is this artificially high, is it taxed or something to stop it being such an easy option?

charleypops, I tried to breastfeed but couldn't, so all my kids were exclusively formula fed after the first 3-4 weeks. Formula doesn't need to be marketed at all - everybody knows it's there - they could save their advertising budgets completely, it's not like detergent fgs, maybe that would make it a bit cheaper for those who do use it and HVs could be given leaflets with a simple list of brands (no pretty pictures) to give to those mothers who want/need to FF?

henshake · 27/08/2005 21:47

Formula feed is dear in the supermarkets but if you go to your healthcentre then it is cheaper. Milupa is £4.92 @ healthcentre.

hercules · 27/08/2005 21:50

There are lots of brands of formula and they are all very similar. By saying they are the closest infers they are very close to breastmilk which they're not. Apparently weasel milk is the closest thing!

hercules · 27/08/2005 21:51

Of course formula is a godsend for women who cant or wont bf but it is not very close to breastmilk.

Roxswood · 27/08/2005 21:53

Here Weasel-weasel... I can just see my little one trying to latch on to a weasel's nipple..

She wandered over to my sister who's just had a new baby and was breastfeeding and lifted her top the other day.. just to have a look you understand. I don't think she had realised before then that other people had breasts, not just Mummy.
A few weeks before that she was very interested in the dog's nipples!

bobbybob · 28/08/2005 05:54

Hattie05 - I agree. One of my friends once said "and I know you hate formula" and I gently corrected her "I don't hate formula, I dislike the things the companies that make it do to sell it".

Same goes for chocolate "I don't hate kitkats, just dislike the company that makes them"

Petrol "I don't hate driving my car, just dislike Shell."

moondog · 28/08/2005 07:50

I'm very sorry to that you feel so bad charley. I can't imagine how hard it must have been to try and get b/feeding established in such stressful circumstances. I had a nightmare 6 weeks with a healthy greedy full term baby so can only shudder imagining what you went through.

I don't hate formula either-used it once or twice myself when I found expressing hard with my first,and very handy it was too!
Just don't want people being tricked/swayed coerced/lured into thinking it's as near as dammit to breastmilk because it isn't.

(And yes,I know that advertisers do seduce and lure,but they bloody well shouldn't in the case of formula. It is a complete exception to the normal rules of marketing.)

I wonder if there was anything that the hospital m/ws could have done to make it easier/better for you? If you think this is the case,how about putting it down on paper and letting them know? It may make a difference to the next woman in your difficult situation.

I live in a very poor rural area (Eastern Turkey)and passing a hospital yesterday,noticed a huge banner acroos the front saying
'Yes to mothers' milk
No to formula and early baby foods'
(or something similar,Turkish still pretty basic.)
I notice very many adverts for formula here,especially in the cluster of chemists opposite the main state hospital which serves the dirt poor rural population.

Going to make a few more enquiries and investigations.

alux · 28/08/2005 09:32

Moondog: speaking of eastern Turkey, I have a feeling the formula advertising in the 3rd world is a lot like cigarette advertising oyt there too.

the market is pretty much falling or saturated in the first world so the only room for expansion is the 3rd world. They don't care about those babies, just that the company makes more money.

moondog · 28/08/2005 09:40

Exactly alux. Fresh pickings eh?

charleypops · 28/08/2005 09:48

I do understand what you are saying about 3rd world countries wanting to imitate The West, but marketing should be legislated so that they can only advertise in countries that have water that's up to standard, and be banned from advertising in countries that can't meet the criteria. Why should it be a global ban?

Speaking as a Western woman, I'd love to see formula manufacturers claiming theirs' is the best etc. and literature as to exactly why one formula might be better than another. I'd like to see companies vying with one another to keep abreast of nutritional research and incorporate the best ingredients.

There is so much information about breastmilk and support available for breastfeeders, but when you really can't do it for whatever reason and you ask your HV/MW for PRACTICAL and anecdotal advice about what the hell you're going to put into your baby's body and they turn round to you and say "I can't/not allowed to discuss that" it's pretty gutting.

BTW `i said in my last post "NEXT best thing to breastmilk" not CLOSEST thing. So the weasel comment was unnecessary and certainly not helpful.

ghosty · 28/08/2005 10:04

Why doesn't someone try phoning these helplines pretending to be a new mum needing advice and see what they actually DO say? I'd love to know.
I would but it would be a bit expensive to call them from NZ

alux · 28/08/2005 10:20

it's been done ghosty. by ickylulu. go to the breast and bottlefeeding board and look for the thead.

lemonice · 28/08/2005 10:23

charleypops, I think the problem for formula companies is that other than branding there is nothing much to choose between them, so it is the illusion of one being better than an other that they have to create and this is done by association in the mind of the buyer with something good and aspirational

charleypops · 28/08/2005 11:40

It would just be better I think to have it all out in the open, so to speak rather than being so covert then people could make up their own minds. These days there is so much pro breastfeeding stuff around that everyone knows its probably the best you give you child, and that, plus such tight controls as to what manufacturers are allowed to claim, that I think mums would be capable to make proper informed decisions and don't need to be "nannied" by embargoes

Anyway I'm bowing out of this debate now.

Thanks for your kind words - Ds is great and doing really well, and is giving me no reason to be concerned anymore. I just can't help worrying.

stardoman · 28/08/2005 11:40

The problem is Charley, that the formula companies are in it to make money. Even if they were allowed to advertise they are all going to claim that their's is the next best thing to breastmilk. SMA are hardly going to turn round and say Cow and Gate are the next best thing or vice versa.

And because they are in it to make money the actual receipes used are commercially sensitive. I understand, too, that there are very few, if any, studies comparing all the different formulae. Health visitors and midwives are able to talk to mums on a one to one basis about formula, its group discussions which are banned under the WHO code. Therefore, in antenatal sessions, health professionals are not allowed to give a group demonstation of how to sterilise bottles and make up formula. However, they are allowed to show a mum how to do this after the baby is born on a one-to-one basis.

This is not totally about promotion of formula either. There was plenty of research which found that group demonstrations of how to make up formula were not effective and baby's were admitted to hospital due to problems caused by having formula which was not made up properly.

I think some health professionals don't like to admit when they don't know something, and so hide behind the WHO code, saying they are not allowed. Health professionals only know what the formula company's salespeople tell them and they are not going to say anything bad about their own product, are they? Health professionals can't give you the information you want (comparing the different formulae so you can decide which is the best one) quite simply because it does not exist. Instead of allowing formula advertising perhaps this is one type of business which should be nationalised. Take away the competitiveness and ensure that receipes and research are out in the open for the benefit of all those who can't breastfeed.

Mandy.

tiktok · 28/08/2005 15:41

As said before, I cannot help women with breastfeeding on this site until the Milupa campaign ends, but there is so much misunderstanding around about the law, I do want to clarify.

The 'UK Law' applies to the advertising of breastmilk substitutes (not the same as 'the Code', which comes from the World Health Organisation, is intended for global adoption, and which has no force of law in the UK) and like the Code, is also intended to protect the health of formula fed babies, as well as removing methods of undermining breastfeeding.

Breastfeeding is a social, emotional and pyschological issue as well as a nutritional one. In all countries of the world where women are able to buy formula, breastfeeding can actually be quite fragile. Without government-level policies that make it possible for women to choose to breastfeed for as long as they wish (eg employment law, laws protecting their right not to be asked to remove themselves from a public place, proper training for healthcare professionals), breastfeeding is easily undermined.

This has a potentially powerful impact on overall infant and maternal health - not necessarily on an individual baby or mother, but at a population level - and it costs money. However, at the individual level, mothers may need a lot of help and support to continue breastfeeding after they have started it, and it is simply unfair and unkind to them as individuals for this to be so patchy.

Of course health professionals can talk about formula. What they should not do is stage group demos on how to prepare a bottle - not that this is illegal, but it is against the UNICEF Baby Friendly policy (linked with the WHO code). Why? Because this is not a safe way to teach people how to do it correctly. Individual parents need one to one teaching, preferably in their own kitchen. Research has shown this is safer than a group demo - it's actually common sense if you think about it.

The decision to use formula should be informed, not by which formula gives you double points, not by the one with the cutest pic on the pack, not by whichever brand your mum used (the formulation may well have changed a zillion times since then), but by which brand gives you the best nutrition for your particular baby. This is why allowing formula manufacturers 'loose' on mothers falls short - how are they going to advise you, when the bottom line is 'what sells?' and not 'what is the right health choice for Baby X?'

The long-term safety of giving artificially-sourced LCPs or prebiotics or whatever to babies has not been demonstrated, because no one is following the babies who have been given these newer ingredients. There is no evidence they are not safe, of course, for the same reason. But just yelling 'new improved' at mothers and 'closest to breastmilk' is not good enough, in my view.

I agree with Mandy, that here is a case for open, honest, government-backed development of infant formula, where all the ingredients can be published and discussed by knowledgable people, so they are not a commercial secret.

Yes, there are some mothers, like Charleypops, who are vulnerable and understandably sensitive to the idea formula is not as good as breastmilk. They need support, too, but not at the expense of undermining the breastfeeding of other mothers.

Twiglett · 28/08/2005 15:57

Tiktok I'm really sorry but I think that I missed that post

I don't truly understand why you can't help women with specific breastfeeding issues and I'd like to. Could you point me in the direction of that explanation please

Lovely to see you posting

moondog · 28/08/2005 17:50

Thank you tik tok,voice of reason!
Always so calm,intelligent,rational and logical.
I'm going to shut up about the bloody thing now-will just direct people to this particular post when I start getting riled.

JoolsToo · 28/08/2005 18:00

tiktok, tbh - I don't see why you can't help women on this site who need and want your help.

Your last post is very eloquent but the last sentence seems to be at odds with your refusal to help women here who have no say in what's advertised on the site who truly need to get some good advice - and from what I hear, you're the one to give it to them.

On the one hand everyone is screaming for more good advice and support for breast feeding mothers and on the other you're denying them that very thing.

moondog · 28/08/2005 18:07

sigh...........

Hattie05 · 28/08/2005 18:33

Now i'm confused,

Tiktok, are you employed to offer this advice to mumsnetters?

If not, then i don't get what you gain, from no longer offering advice, if you are still hear reading and responding to messages.

Twiglett, as far as i understood it, Tiktok didn't want to be part of a site that was allowing the Milupa advertising campaign.

Hattie05 · 28/08/2005 18:33

here - not hear!

Twiglett · 28/08/2005 19:07

Hattie no she isnt', in RL she is a breastfeeding counsellor and has spent many hours offering support and advice to many posters here.

She has been responsible for many mumsnetters managing to breastfeed and for extended breastfeeding

That's why whilst I appreciate anyone making a stand I do not understand why she is unable to post advice to those who need it. It sounds as though there are regulations stopping her and I was simply asking for clarification as I haven't actually seen the post where this is explained (or if I have I forgot)