Mixed race child, the north west.

[freshstartfor2024]

Just to start, I'm a white single mum with a mixed race daughter, who has none of her dad's family in her life whatsoever. They are in America and never call or send presents, or ask after her. I hope you all don't mind me asking here, but you would have the most experienced knowledge to guide me.

We live in a predominantly white suburb of a small city which probably does have about 5-10 percent BAME population. Less than an hour from London but I have anxiety over visiting London as I grew up there and suffered a lot of trauma and was growing up there during the tube bombings.

At the moment, DD (4) sees herself as white and was a bit shocked to see herself tan so much after last summer. Her melanin has also definitely come in over the last year and she's noticed herself change. Her hair is fine and slightly wavy, so people usually label her as Spanish or Mexican. (I always correct them). However, she has started to notice in school photos that her skin is darker than everyone else's and she's been upset about it a couple of times. I've shown her photos on the internet of her half siblings in America to show her there are other girls just like her, related to her, who she can maybe meet when she's grown up, and shown her photos of mixed race girls on the internet and commented on how beautiful they are. She understands she had a black father when she was born and that's why her skin is darker than mummy's. There are about 4-5 other children in her class who are either mixed race, black or asian, so she's not the only one, but is still a very small minority.

However, I'm looking at moving for my own mental health to a different part of the country which has more amenities, as I can't find what I need down here. Closer to friends and a sibling of mine. The town is very white and I feel she would be the only white child in her class at school. I'm struggling to know if this would be okay for her as she gets older. It's hard to find more diverse areas which aren't in a built up area. It's 20 minutes drive from Manchester though and about an hour from Sheffield, so I could make a big effort to visit those cities a lot with her. I don't drive at the moment, but hopefully would by the time she's older. But I've heard the North West can be very racist? I do feel it's quite racist down here, but in a more covert way. Slight comments and questions sometimes, and I've seen people coo over my white friend's babies and ignore mine, sitting right next to them, when she was younger. I'm worried the North West would be more openly hateful and racist.

Any advice would be amazing.

Yes, I know about the pain, of US taxes. On the plus side though, kid can vote in US elections, move to the US if they want and seek help from US embassies abroad if they need to. It might also make any future relationship with US family easier.

A UK based friend of mine got US citizenship for her children. Her sister (with the same entitlement) didn't bother for her now adult children. Her children are now not entitled to it (it had to be claimed before 18 apparently) and her kids are really angry with their mum for not doing this for them. If it was me, I'd definitely do it for my kids. They can always give up their US citizenship in the future if they don't want it but might not be able to get it if they decide they do want it.

I can't help with your NW area question, but something that strikes me, is that at age 4 it is relatively normal for children to start to see themselves as separate from their parents and to notice difference. She may be conscious right now that she doesn't look like a mini you and is processing this. With support, and it sounds like you are doing this in a positive way, she will be able to be confident about who she is. Being able to go to school in an area where she is not in a minority is likely to help though.

NW is not racist at all. I grew up one of very few mixed race kids (there were virtually no actual black people as far as I can remember) in a 99% white town and had no problems. Don’t worry about it.

It’s sad to hear that you’re struggling OP, but kindly I think given how othered and inferior she’s feeling where you’re living right now, moving to a less diverse area is not really an option for you. The secondhand exposure that you are trying doesn’t seem to be working for her but I can appreciate you’re trying. Some people really don’t.

The suburbs around London are very different, depending on which area you choose to live in. Maybe if you give us an idea of which areas you have lived in and not liked them, we can suggest some alternatives in the UK which are not so busy. Personally, I didn’t enjoy living in the North, it was years ago, but I experienced overt racism there in which I was actually fearful of my safety. I personally didn’t feel like there was any less of the covert either.

Thank you!

For the other comments-

I'm not open to suggestions of where to move to- I'm limited anyway by what comes up on the homeswapper site. I'm either moving to the new town I've found which sounds absolutely amazing, or staying put here, for her childhood. That's why I'm asking about the area. Eventually I'll move to a different country and it'll be a whole new ballgame for me and my daughter. She has a US passport, she was born there. In a diverse area. But we experienced hate from some of the black community- people saying to the dad that she wasn't his baby, as she was white etc etc. We lived in London for a bit when I returned and I experienced hate from a mixed race lady saying I didn't know how to take care of my child, because I was white. So I know that nowhere is a perfect solution for a mixed race child. My mum is mixed. A different mix to my daughter and she hated growing up where she did, whereas her siblings love it and didn't feel different and stayed there. I hated where I grew up, but my mum lived there because it made her happy as a mixed woman. I have a mixed race friend who grew up in my same diverse city and she said she was made to feel uncomfortable by both white and black people for not being completely either. My ideal is finding somewhere where people are open minded and welcoming to all people- hence me asking about the NW. To the person saying I was dissecting her skin changing colour or something- go read again- my daughter brought it up herself. I've never ever mentioned her skin to her ever, until she asked me herself.

Well said

In fairness central Sheffield was good, it’s got some diversity because of the students. I had to travel outside of Sheffield for my job and it was very hit and miss. Some people lovely but too many overt racists incidents for comfort. On one occasion I had a group of around five men following me chanting the N word.

Where to move to? A rural place? I'm rural very NW and I have experienced, well, xenophobia? I guess you'd call it , and I'm white. It came from a white woman. It was because I'm not from "round here". This ridiculous thought process would exist inside these ignorant people even if I came from a place only fifteen mins up the road, it's crazily ignorant..I am in no way trying to diminish racism by comparing this to it, it was anti English rather than race related in my case.

But people can be so incredibly awful and uneducated and untravelled and ignorant in these places. Our community had to suffer the shared indignity of a scummy man painting a swastika on a local Black owned business, and to be fair everyone rallied around the business and did not tolerate it. But there was room for such disgusting behaviour to happen in a place like this in the first place, if you see what I mean?

Please don't make your lovely little daughter grow up in such a narrow minded place unless you truly have no other option 💕

I read this article and it made me so sad and angry that the woman had to grow up feeling that way, but her soul is strong as an adult;

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/nov/26/didnt-fit-in-wales-but-found-sense-of-place-understanding-history

I was brought up in the NW and now live in Wolverhampton.

Now I have not lived in the NW for decades but when I was growing up there was, well it is racism, but it was more people keeping with their 'own'.

Sorry this is really clumsy, I don't mean to upset anyone with clumsy words so please be patient.

OK so some areas were 'Asian' and others were 'white'. But not many people who were other ethnic groups. Where I was brought up OP your daughter would be part of the 'white' population.

She wouldn't be the only person in the class with brown skin but she would be the only mixed race person.

Now Wolverhampton is different. People mix much more. If you go to a sweet centre to buy samosas the person in front of you may be Polish and the one behind you could be Jamaican.

There are areas with more people of a certain background but not areas that are exclusively one group of people.

@VelvetShrimp Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that, my grandmother moved to be near us and she was regarded as a 'comer in'. It takes about three generations before you are not a 'comer in'.

What town is this exactly OP?

I posted the stats on another thread (can't find it now) but areas like Trafford have a bigger % of Black people compared to Guildford. Personally, I don't think % BAME will help you because it's not just white people who are racist. My Black friends have experienced worst racism in South Asian heavy areas like Harrow in London. My own family in fact are rude and racist about Black people (and our side, because we have Black ancestry albeit very very diluted).

I live in a town 20 mins away from Manchester with a large South Asian (Bangladesh) population , but also seems to have a lot of Black people as I always see some out and about. Mixed feelings. There are a lot of racists on FB but there are also people telling them off (white people). Me and white DH have gotten stares when out in the derelict mall but other than that people are very friendly. Stop to chat in the street, hold bus and doors open for me, etc. I don't know what to think. When kids are of school age I am bit worried about being bullied at school but I told DH in that case we'd move back to the more affluent area (Altrincham) that we moved from that isn't racist. It's full of rich BAME however and recently more HK people etc have moved in, similar to a lot of the Trafford area. Very popular with communities that value education thanks to the Grammar schools.

@sashh the NW is a big place. I don't know where you grew up but DH is from Lancashire and the atmosphere was very much how you described it.
Manchester and the buzzy areas are full of 'incomers', not just white people, moving here having been priced out of London. Not to mention the massive student population, it's a very different place. You won't spend even 5 minutes in the city centre without seeing a white face unlike in places like Macclesfield.

I am not in a buzzy area, so still somewhat like what you described...

“I've never ever mentioned her skin to her ever, until she asked me herself.”

@freshstartfor2024 this is actually one of the core problems. You haven’t been talking to her about it and now she’s been given a shock. It seems like you were raising her as solely a white girl when she isn’t. That whole “I don’t see colour” malarkey is extremely damaging because then you’re (general you) essentially ignoring a key facet of how a person moves through society. Stop ignoring it and get her some Black friends.

You’re also sounding defensively prejudiced in your responses as well. Be careful because she’ll start to pick up on your distrust of Black people.

My children are also mixed race and we live in another racist country.

I would never raise them outside of their community. We have friends who are mixed race who were raised in very white areas and this led to difficulties not experienced by those raised in their communities, and many regrets about their lack of culture and shared history. I wouldn't do this to my children.

Many mixed race children a generation ago struggled a lot with feeling like the only one. Now, being mixed race is relatively common. In my son's group of 6 friends in his class, 5 of them are mixed race(s).

People who think race "shouldn't" matter are only minimising how much it DOES matter.

Yep yep yep. All of this. Why would you not mention her skin colour to her at all? I do not understand that at all. I wish people would think about what they’re posting on OUR board because comments like that really make me sad

"At the moment, DD (4) sees herself as white and was a bit shocked to see herself tan so much after last summer.

Her melanin has also definitely come in over the last year and she's noticed herself change.

Her hair is fine and slightly wavy, so people usually label her as Spanish or Mexican. (I always correct them).

However, she has started to notice in school photos that her skin is darker than everyone else's and she's been upset about it a couple of times.

I've shown her photos on the internet of her half siblings in America to show her there are other girls just like her, related to her, who she can maybe meet when she's grown up, and shown her photos of mixed race girls on the internet and commented on how beautiful they are.

She understands she had a black father when she was born and that's why her skin is darker than mummy's. There are about 4-5 other children in her class who are either mixed race, black or asian, so she's not the only one, but is still a very small minority."

Could I just ask about the above bits. She sees herself as white. How could she? When she already knew and still knows her dad is black. When she recently got upset, did what you say comfort her? What more could you do now, to address this aspect?

Dont get a US passport! As someone upthread recommended. As an adult she would have to file an annual US tax return and FBAR and if she earns enough, also to pay US income tax and capital gains. She can apply for citizenship herself if she really wants it but don’t inflict it on her!

THIS!

Please hear this OP and listen to it without feeling defensive. Try to understand this as it's critical.

Many mixed children raised by white parents don't prioritise their race. They think that are a good parent, their child is happy and healthy and has friends, they don't experience any 'overt racism'.

But trust me, the internal battle, the differences you become aware of, the micro aggressions you have to deal with, the prejudice opinions from friends and adults.

Never white enough for the whites (and if you are, ie have white friends, you still have to deal with microaggressions, assumptions and comments) and never black enough for the black kids. I STILL deal with this at the age of 34!

Please prioritise living in a diverse area, meeting black people and developing friendships and most importantly LEARNING what it is like to live in this world through brown skin.

I'd recommend 'why I'm no longer talking to white people about race' by Reni Eddo-Lodge -- fantastic and informative book. Very thought provoking and easy to read.

Your daughter will thank you one day.

And respectfully OP, this is what really pisses people of colour off..

It is not and never will be, our job to educate you on this subject. Whether you have a child of colour or not, it is never our burden to teach you anything. Yet here we are, trying to get you to understand.

You decided to have a baby with black man and create a mixed race child.

You haven't made it a priority to discuss her race with her beyond 'your dad is black'.

>>> ""At the moment, DD (4) sees herself as white and was a bit shocked to see herself tan so much after last summer""

>>> "However, she has started to notice in school photos that her skin is darker than everyone else's and she's been upset about it a couple of times""

The above statements are EXTREMELY problematic. My heart sinks inside for that awful feeling the girl inside must've had realising that she isn't white. This is so wrong. And in the past this has set SO many mixed race girls up for a lifetime of almost wanting to be white if their race hasn't been discussed with them. All white friends in a white school, straightening their hair to death, comparing features and body types. It's AWFUL and completely avoidable.

You NEED to prioritise this NOW.

I hope you are really hearing and reflecting on some of these comments.

If you are listening and feeling frustrated, pissed off or defensive, don't bother commenting saying you only asked what the north west is like. We've rightly responded to a much bigger problem you have.

Then read them all again OPENLY.

@scoobysnaxx I agree with most of what you’re saying, but I do think that while OP is having the typical strop she knows all this. I wouldn’t engage with the thread had she not tacitly acknowledged in her first post BW are not obliged to help her with this. Similarly, to me it does seem like deep down, she knows the move is too risky and she needs to increase the amount of exposure her DD has to black and mixed race people. I think she’s just worried, because she knows that will mean she might have to make the sacrifice and live somewhere she doesn’t like.

There is definitely a problem here, OP has work to do but at least she is trying, whereas there is a black parent who is partially if not completely neglecting his duty.

We live in Trafford, about 20 mins from Manchester. It's suburban, but next to lovely countryside. It has very localised 'diversity', with DD1 being the only white child in her class, and DD2 in a school less than 2 miles away having no non-white children in her class. The main city also has areas of great ethnic diversity, but some areas with significant racial tensions. Overall I don't think the NW is more racist- we moved here from Hampshire where almost everyone is white and there's quite significant racism.
You sound like a very considerate mum, and I hope you find somewhere that suits.
Of interest, we used to live near Sheffield (on the peak district side) and found that to be an extremely friendly and diverse community.

I also mentioned Trafford! Lovely area.
Shame about the price though. We'd have stayed if we could have afforded it.

Starseeking
You feel the place you currently live in is covertly racist so your proposed solution to that is to move to an even less diverse place with your mixed race DD???

No, I categorically would not advise you to do that, in fact I suggest you move somewhere more diverse. Black and brown people don't have the luxury of assimilating without question wherever they go, you do

I agree with this.

OP you're on a Black Mumsnet board and should know there are people here with lived experience of racism. The way you shut this poster down in such a condescending way - that reply! shows you just don't get it even if you think you do. Your past experiences aren't relatable to your daughter because there'll have been places and situations within which you absolutely can assimilate. You are White, and in the UK. Not so and never will be so for your child.

Your daughter is mixed race - she needs to come before your wish to live in a nicer house and area you deem to be prettier. But of course thats up to you.

People can say 'oh its not racist around there' all they want - if they're not Black they do not know the reality. On the other hand perhaps those are the validating answers you seek as truth isn't always pretty.

The NW is mostly racist. Especially for black people. I have lived experience of quite a few areas and I feel qualified to make that statement. Parts of Manchester are fine but overall it’s not a good place to live unless you are white or Asian.

If you don’t have black friends or family you are going to have to rely on the community and you won’t find it there.

I live in the north west, been here about 3 years now in a not very diverse medium sized town 30 minutes from Manchester.

I haven’t experienced any noticeable racism but I did get warned by an Asian taxi driver that people look at “us”( ie. Non-whites) differently. Possibly and I’ve not noticed?!

The thing is I WFH and usually when I leave my house it’s a case of a short walk to the station to get on a train to Manchester , My office in Liverpool or London so I haven’t had much interaction with people here. I don’t drive and get my weekly shopping delivered to me. I have been out to eat with my (white) boyfriend a few times though and that was fine.

FWIW though, in my limited experience, I’d say it’s not particularly racist compared to anywhere else in the UK. as op have said it possibly differs from area to area though so it may require some more research into the specific place you want to move before doing so.

on another note, it sounds like a difficult situation for your daughter who has seemingly been abandoned by her father? If that is the case, it’s bad enough under any circumstances but especially in this situation where it has the added complication of contributing to identity issues.

Wherever you decide to live Buy lots of children’s books by black authors with diverse characters for your daughter, watch black movies and discuss age appropriate black history etc

There is definitely a problem here, OP has work to do but at least she is trying, whereas there is a black parent who is partially if not completely neglecting his duty.

I agree with this, I despair of men like this who leave their children in such situations. I grew up in a predominantly white part of the UK and I saw this a lot. Mixed race kids who had zero or minimal contact with their black side due to an absent father.

It often resulted in very mixed up and confused kids with severe self hatred and racial identity issues to the extent you had some mixed heritage kids shouting racist abuse at black people or espousing their hatred of black people or just not quite realising they were viewed as black.

Yes, the mothers had a hand in it too and weren’t blameless in many cases, but I felt the Dads who didn’t bother at all got let off far too easily and too much blame was focused on the mothers.

There’s also the point that being an adult in a less diverse area isn’t the same as being a child.
Adults have more choice about their environment and socialisation and are also better equipped to deal with micro aggressions etc. I think you have to have grown up in an area or be raising children there to really know what it’s like.

An adult won’t get their hair touched 20 times a day by children and adults in the same way a child will at school. Barbara at work knows to be subtle with her BS but the kids in DCs class don’t. Very very different for children than adults and has a far greater impact on self esteem than for those who are coming from places that allowed for their cultural development.