All white exclusive school or mixed school ?

[Doubtmyself]

This may seem like a no-brainer but I'm torn.

We put our DC down at birth for a very exclusive prep school in central London ( the type celebs and royalty might push for- prefer not to name it, but suffice to say its seen as a Chelsea / Notting hill school) it has great academic reputation and sends pupils onto the most prestigious, selective private schools in the country. BUT its very very white, we certainly don't 'fit in' wealth wise.

Paying the fees will mean sacrifice, we have only one child so it's a case of goodbye nice holidays, nice restaurants out, luxury shopping, we've costed it all out.) They plan has always been a good prep school then a grammar or outstanding state academy ( We work in education and see the value of a mixed education like this, plus secondary private fees are much higher than prep!!)

DC has been offered a place for 4+ reception in 2023. Since putting DC name down, I've really gone off the idea. Partner is still keen and friends and family all agree its a very prestigious school and we are lucky to have a place. We'll have to sell up and move closer which given central London property prices means downsizing, losing our garden.

DC has been at a far more down to Earth private school in outer suburbs, much lower fees, no uber wealthy parents, working parents like us who may own their own but not mansions in central London. DC has been at school's pre-prep for over a year now and its an all through school till 18. It also has a good mix of black pupils. In league tables etc its not that high and does well compared to state schools across London, but certainly low compared to other private schools in London.

I'm really torn what to do and we have to make our minds up very soon, stay where we are at a school that's fine and has children that look like DC, or send DC to exclusive prep that's a gateway to premier league schools, but where DC will probably be only black child in class?

Why are you even considering a prep which prepares children for “elite” secondary schools if that is not what you want ? You need to find a Prep School which sends children to secondary schools which you want to send your DC to. Everything else, including race, is secondary.

I can't imagine an all whites school. I have one in primary and another in secondary and I'd say there are more Asian and Black pupils than white or at least equal.

@Doubtmyself if you tell us the names of the two schools in question we could give you more tailored advice. But as a general rule, I think it is a bad idea to downsize and move for a school. What happens if your DC or you hate it? What happens if you can't sell and find somewhere to buy before your DC starts?
We have put several DC through a variety of prep schools, virtually everyone still tutors for 11+ on top of the preparation done by the school, unless aiming for a more holistic boarding school outside London or a comp. Therefore I would take the leavers' destinations with a pinch of salt.

If it were me, I would keep my DC in the current prep (if it is more than half decent) and add some top up tutoring (either DIY or external) from Year 5. Also some senior schools in London offer bursaries to families with household incomes of up to £120k.

And to the PP who say either prep schools are a waste of money or no different to state primaries, it all depends on the schools in question. Our first prep was too small, was obsessed with spelling tests and cursive script writing for four year olds was definitely a waste of time, although it had a cute uniform. Soon learned from my mistake and found really lovely enriching schools for my DC.

This.

I sent my ds to a reasonable state primary and to a quietly good quality (but not trendy/flashy) independent at 11.

He says it took him two years to catch up with those children who had attended the independent since 4, but he did catch up, and is going into GCSEs on a level with his peers and with first class facilities & small class sizes. It also means he benefits from the better support during the difficult teenage period.

I'm a single mum and it's a big stretch for me. I thought about the options for a long time. I avoided the local 'fashionable' independent because the culture wasn't right, it was too exclusive and (I thought) slightly nasty. It worried me.

We're white, in Hampshire and there are a few pupils of colour in each year at our school. DS has never even mentioned race. The school would not tolerate any adverse behaviour of that kind.

If the sacrifice means that you’d need to sell your house I would look at state options. State school is not some second best offering you know. I think it prepares DC very well for the world around them.

And to the PP who say either prep schools are a waste of money or no different to state primaries,

That wasn’t quite what I meant, but I may have expressed myself badly! My family has experience of everything from perfectly average city and rural state primaries, through local independent day school to Oxford boarding preps - so I do know they offer different experiences. But generally we moved from one to the other with a purpose.

The OP wants to sacrifice a ridiculous amount of ‘lifestyle’ for a fancier prep - without a sensible reason to do so. IMVHO if one has to choose between the two then independent senior school is far more impactful than independent primary school. But she’s not intending to use the prep to gain any senior school advantage. So it’s not worth it.

Apologies @MuddlerInLaw , you are right. In OP's circumstances it doesn't make sense to bet everything on this central London prep.

I should explain my partner has high hopes the prep school will help DC gain entry to a top private school, although if we get no bursary, it will have to be a grammar which we will prepare as back up ( I prefer grammar simply because its likely to be more diverse, which partner grudgingly agrees, but partner is aiming for top in everything, I don't think I made that clear, the plan is very much : Top prep > Top private senior school.

With the whole sacrifice thing, we both grew up very poor, and we have very simple tastes, the thought of our DC living in a wealthy part of London in a private owned flat that's smaller but costs the same as our larger house in a much less expensive part of London isn't really downsizing, I should have explained that better. It's not like we are 'betting everything', any place we buy to be close to the school will be easy to sell, like our place now, its London, everything sells here.

My partner loves to tell me, In 2017, Oxford admitted more pupils from Westminster School (49), than it did black students (48). Simply, the prep prepares for school of Westminster calibre and the fact is students who go through this schooling are well prepared for success.

On the one hand I understand partners tough love approach, but as someone said on this, black kids who attend these schools ARE successful, but go through a lot of stress, even therapy! Partner says it's the price for success, I can see both sides.

Lots to think about.

I don't think I made that clear, the plan is very much : Top prep > Top private senior school.

No. You said the opposite

They plan has always been a good prep school then a grammar or outstanding state academy

and have therefore wasted the time of posters offering sincere advice!

Never mind …

I don’t think you’ve mentioned the sex of your child? (I may have missed it, though you do mention Westminster, so …) TBH London isn’t the healthiest or safest place to bring up a black boy if one has other options. If you really want a gilded school life I’d suggest: current school to yr 5 or 6; Oxford / Berkshire (boarding or day) prep yrs 6 to 8; proceed to traditional public school (non-London, boarding) from yr 9. Both prep and public schools attract a wide diversity of pupils (in terms of wealth, nationality, race, lifestyle) so your child would never be ‘the only’. And of course the cut-off level for bursaries is much, much higher than at a day school.

(But I wouldn’t mean too heavily on your husband’s Oxford statistics! As far as I can see it’s state schools with ambitious leadership who are currently guiding the most impressive numbers of black children to Oxbridge.)

‘lean’ not ‘mean’ …

I can see how you feel I wasted everyone's time, and I am sorry for that. Yes, me and my partner are at loggerheads on this, MY plan, and THEIR plan.... Hence the reason I'm on here!!! Getting ammunition for my argument. So all the replies are far from wasted, BELIEVE. I'm trying to compromise by saying I give partner their beloved prep, give me grammar at 11.

I'm just a realist, it's all very well my partner telling me, we 'just' get a bursary for senior private school, but there's only so many bursaries to go around, I did say earlier we can't count on that as an entry, no matter how much partner wishes for it.

I see the logic of your plan @MuddlerInLaw but even partner wouldn't consider boarding for DC, one thing we are united on is staying in London and having DC at day schools.

The war continues.....

"On the one hand I understand partners tough love approach, but as someone said on this, black kids who attend these schools ARE successful, but go through a lot of stress, even therapy! Partner says it's the price for success, I can see both sides."

In my opinion that is too high a price to pay. Especially if there is another option. The choice is not between a predominantly white elite school and a failing comp.. it is between the elite school and an environment where your children have more chance of being nurtured.

What was your partner's school and home life like? What was your's like?

How do you envisage the future world? A continuation of power coming from the hallowed grounds that brought forth the colonialists of the past or a society where those in power come from modern outward looking institutions like University College London and LSE?

I agree @ChateauMargaux that by sending DC to these schools its effectively supporting the establishment - but the flip side is the standards of education DC receives and the encouragement of ambition can propel blackness into spaces they haven't been before.

My partner looks at the new chancellor Kwarteng or ex president Obama, or shadow foreign sec David Lammy and point to their education: All of them - top private schools and top elite universities.

I think all universities are modern outward looking to some extent, but places like LSE and UCL don't have much better state school participation than Oxbridge. Contextual offers from elite universities are helping , but all these institutions still have over 30% private school intake- and the private schools are furious at that reduction and accusing uni's of social engineering- can you imagine elite universities ever getting an intake with something that reflects society?

My partner is coming round to keeping our DC at the local much more mixed private school, but only if DC tries out at 7+ for a bursary place at the elite ones.

George Orwell wrote that the cruellest thing parents can do to a child is send them to a school where they can’t fit it…

I would never give up the garden, that’s way more important than the prep.

Sounds like everyone is happy now, why change?

I think maybe your partner is being a bit snobby.

George Orwell wrote that the cruellest thing parents can do to a child is send them to a school where they can’t fit it…

I’m afraid the flip side of that is that everyone is forced into a box they’re not allowed out of.

This makes me sad, though …

propel blackness into spaces they haven't been before

It makes me wonder, OP if you have never spent any time in countries or continents where black peoples are the majority race? Where every politician, barrister, architect, surgeon, professor, scientist, billionaire, entrepreneur, whatever is black - and is never patronised by congratulations on being ‘the first’ or part of a diversity project. Black people have excelled in every area of knowledge and culture throughout history - please don’t feel you need to sell your house in order to achieve and demonstrate black success.

This is not to say you shouldn’t strive for the best for yourself and your child! Just don’t imagine we’re all waiting for you to show us the way …

@Doubtmyself the 7+ is a tricky route because lots of in the know middle class parents go the State til 8 route. We have friends with DC at Westminster or have been and they went to a variety of prep schools. If the Head teacher at the elite prep is telling you that they can guarantee a place at Westminster, Harrow etc then run as fast as you can in the opposite direction. A very sensible Head once said, paying for education does not guarantee a particular outcome. Also, a lot of public schools have shifted their focus away from Oxbridge to international universities in the US, Canada etc. (Take a look at the Higher Education Board)

Also another think to remember that not all courses are offered at all universities. E.g. Game design & animation isn't, although Fine art is available at The Ruskin School of Art (Oxford University).

Here is a useful link on bursaries and the schools that are part of this scheme.
intouniversity.org/support-us/independent-schools/

I commented earlier but wanted to come back, as the conversation has progressed to careers, to say that, whilst my husband went to an extremely good public school (aged 6 to 18) and I went to a very basic state school in a deprived area, I out earn my husband several times over and have an established well respected career.

Some of this is to do with general aptitude and not necessarily intelligence. This is also primarily down to my mother encouraging me to read, challenge the status quo, instilling a can do approach, demonstrating a mindset that nothing was out of reach just because of my background and I telling me continuously to believe in my potential and that the hard knocks would one day pay off. So, I do ultimately agree that a good education is beneficial but there is a lot more to this and assume you are focused on all of the personal aspects as well. Just putting a child into a great school won't turn out the next Chancellor.

My partner is born and raised in a black majority country, only came to the UK in late teens.

Any country in Africa or the Caribbean is scarred from colonial history, where white privilege still exists - ingrained into the elite - be that St Lucia or Angola or even Zimbabwe and Cuba. Western corporations exploit many black countries too.

Believe me, our minds are DECOLONISED, as are many black people across the world, I don't think I or my DC need to show the way to anyone either.

My basic dilemma is the prep in v.affluent part of west London is academically more rigorous than DC's current school, but its less diverse.

@soma, the head said the opposite, that getting into top public schools wasn't guaranteed although the school has great track record.

As DC is only 3 and they turn out to want to study art and design, of course I'll be supporting them going to St Martins, or Goldsmiths not Oxbridge ! I know say computer animation , you head to Uni of the Creative Arts for the best course in the UK , for creative writing head to Uni of East Anglia. Russell group Uni's aren't always the best place, for every subject.

My DC may not be academic at all and be more suited to leaving at 16 for a more practical apprenticeship, who knows?

Is there a rigerous and mixed option?

It sounds like you have good options where you are. Don't move. Apart from anything else I definitely wouldn't want to give up a garden.

Its a school for goodness sake. Keep them at the current one where they are happy. You are giving so much up for the unknown. What if your DC don’t like the new school, then they won’t do as well what if you miss the garden or feel too restricted in the new smaller property? What if your child can’t keep up with the academic rigour at the new school? They are only 3, you don’t know how academic they are going to be nor do you know if grammar or an academic secondary is the right for them. Keep them at the Prep and then reassess at 7.
FWIW I went to a very competitive academic school often mentioned on these boards. Believe me, many many of my year cohort are in just above average jobs. Attending one of these schools is not the be all and end all. Especially if your priority is just academics. These schools provide a breadth of curriculum. If you want excellent academics, many schools will provide this and it’s not worth a massive life change for the family

Stay but for different reason. You said you’d have to sell up- consider the value of your house between now and then as likely to increase between 2-5% compound YoY and currently houses are at a premium still in central london- so if you sell later, delay it, that extra profit can go towards senior school fees.
if your child excels at primary it doesn’t matter. It does at secondary.
Give them the inner confidence that comes from inclusion now and pay for tutoring or private school when it counts and maybe your house increase has buffered the cost.
Also older they’ll be more mature - perhaps enough, to deal with being “other” later- rather than at 8 when it will feel like othering is at the core of who they are.
later they’ll see it as more ignorant

I know things have got better but when I went to oxford there were two Black kids in my entire law faculty. Now it’s so much better. But if they are successful, the reality is that not many people in their law firm will look like them- or in those university echelons- even now- and they need a confident base to deal with that. That confidence is grown in childhood.

Also they’ll know who they are more then. What subjects they love and are good at. The money and sacrifice you spent on a prep means well rounded but not specialist- it won’t mean anything at 18- the money on a sixth form could.

OP if it was me I would find the best prep school I could but with a diverse make up of children. I do believe education comes first however you don't want your child to be socially awkward either and confidence is key.

The private system is such that you can change from one independent to another at your leisure.
I would take the place, commute for a while, and reassess after a year.
If all isn’t well you could return to the one they’re currently attending providing it isn’t oversubscribed.

But I wouldn’t mean too heavily on your husband’s Oxford statistics! As far as I can see it’s state schools with ambitious leadership who are currently guiding the most impressive numbers of black children to Oxbridge.

This bit of the post reminded me of this state school - www.standard.co.uk/news/education/brampton-manor-newham-oxbridge-offers-eton-b923452.html