23 and me / ancestry etc

[Orchidflower1]

Hi all, Dd (teen) is very interested in family heritage ( which I’m proud of!) and she’s keen to go a step further and look into the actual genetics and the geography or her genes. She wants to see the map showing where her ancestors came from.

I’m honestly torn, I wholeheartedly support keeping our cultural and emotional values as a MR family alive. I want to foster her interest but I’m not sure on the balance of these things. I have some thoughts and I’d welcome thoughts and opinions here.

Do they have the right to store her DNA?
Can she actually do this as a 17year old or does she wait until she’s 18?
We are a mixed family and I love who we are- I’m concerned that the “map” of the heritage may dissuade her from embracing all aspects of her heritage- I know that’s a weird concern!
We don’t ( that I know of) have any family skeletons in the closest so no random cousins likely to pop up in America/ India/ Outer Mongolia etc but it plays on my mind.

Dd has been researching our family tree and feels like this is the next step- I’m just not sure. Some extended family do not embrace the diversity of our unit as much as others so I’m really torn.

Does anyone have any thoughts on alternatives?

Thank you if you’ve read through my long op. I appreciate that this board is not as busy but I’m not brave enough to post in the “main” section. I feel the nuances of my family may be lost on others.

Hello Orchid!
I've never done this myself, so a short reply. You first of all need to look at the t and c's of the site/company you are going to use. Legally, DC, can't enter into a contract until 18 ( exceptions, but not applicable here).
So that to consider first.
If over 18, and she is giving a DNA sample, then back to the t and c's and see what she would be agreeing to in the contract.
A map to see - sounds really interesting.
Finding out about wider family, more specifically, could get distressing. Perhaps a conversation to be had there first of all?

Thank you @TheBlackDarner they were my concerns too.

Perhaps I’ll say to her to wait for her 18th and have it as a gift.

It’s hard because I don’t want to knock her enthusiasm but I want to keep her safe and happy. Tbh that’s an issue to be applied across numerous parenting issues isn’t it!

They are always your children even though my lot are adults! I'm always overthinking!

We've a great great uncle who is not someone we are proud of, in the family, but distant and long dead. A tale that can be told without too much upset. But still some gasps about his deeds.

It's something I've thought about doing myself, but never actually moved on. The thoughts of linking with people I don't really want to know puts me off!

I think 18 is not long to go, for your DD, so she should be ok.
( Check out the DNA thing though. How accurate can those things actually be?)

Orchid I think there will be more replies here, but it might take a while.
Lovely to see you on here again.
Hopefully, someone with a bit more knowledge will turn up

I have done it. It was a gift to me from my elder DD.

I agree that it would be a good gift for 18th birthday. I have attached a link to an article that discusses the pros and cons of each of the ancestry DNA kits available. For example 23andMe is more tailored towards genetic testing for health conditions...ie do you have breast cancer BRAC gene? Than it is for ancestry estimates. Also some companies are better for US and others for international clients. So encourage her to research the different companies before making a decision as to who she wants to test her DNA. This article is just to get her started.
www.smarterhobby.com/genealogy/best-dna-test/

Thank you @PlanDeRaccordement I appreciate the reply. That’s really useful to know about 23 and me. Dd is not interested at all in the health aspects, purely from a heritage point of view. I will share the link with her.

I know it can seem lazy asking for the opinions of others when I could google, I just feel personal recollections are useful when it’s something so personal.

The actual value of the info she’s getting is a little debatable as well. It’s not meaningless, but it’s important to understand how it’s done and the limitations.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/2019/1/28/18194560/ancestry-dna-23-me-myheritage-science-explainer

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/tBX9dq9V9qWV687ddP6lK9/dna-ancestry-kits

That is true, they all are not the most reliable. One article I read mentioned that any ethnicity that pops up below 1% is noise and should be ignored.

Thank you @SickAndTiredAgain that’s really useful to know. These things are not cheap either!

I'd be a bit cautious for lots of reasons.

My in-laws are big into genealogy and did I think the ancestry one a number of years ago. It wasn't actually very interesting and there are questions about how accurate they are. They found the 'what countries your background is from' stuff fairly generic, some of it didn't line up with what they knew from their own research so they were a bit disappointed.

Then there's the risk of what you could find out. I would have said, say ten years ago, that we had no skeletons in our family closet either.

But things that have since come out that could have come out in a more shocking way via a DNA service:

1)A secret half-sibling nobody knew about, the result of a 'shameful' teenage relationship
2) A recessive hereditary gene that had gone unnoticed for generations till someone unfortunately married and had kids with someone with the same v rare recessive hereditary gene. Probably good to know, but its not the best way to discover significant health news.

You may feel confident in your own generation, but if you discovered, say, your parent had a half-sibling who had been given up for adoption, or your DD discovered that, what would you do? Also, with 23andme, they test for a LOT of health conditions. I didn't used to think my family history had any, except a tendency to high cholesterol, until a family member was diagnosed with Parkinson's and another with lewy body dementia, which are linked. I considered doing a 23andme a few years ago, before having kids, then I reflected on whether I'd actually WANT to know if I carried the Parkinsons gene, which I well might.

It could all be a lot for a17/ 18 year old, so I'd be very, very careful to understand exactly what each service will provide to you, and think through what you'd want to see happen in different scenarios. I'd be inclined to stay away from the health ones, and even the others I'd think very carefully. They might not be 'your' secrets but discovering, say, your favourite auntie had a lovechild they gave up for adoption isn't the kind of thing you can un-learn.

Thank you @nurserypolitics honestly this thread has been a real eye opener and has actually done what I wanted it to do, give me personal insight into the tests.

Dd is def not interested in the health aspect - it was only the heritage part. I think she and I naively thought she’d get the pretty map and pie chart linking her with her MR heritage. I know now that there is actually a lot more to it. Tbh I’m inclined to let the concept rest with her and not bring it up again until she’s older. Obviously once shes turned 18, it’s her choice.

Thank you all for taking the time to post.

I appreciate that this board is not as busy but I’m not brave enough to post in the “main” section. I feel the nuances of my family may be lost on others.

So you've posted on this board because you're not brave enough to post in the main section...?
I don't really understand why you couldn't post elsewhere (such as the Multicultural board) but felt comfortable enough coming here?

Because @hibye123 I’ve found kindness, support and conversation on this board. Please don’t be that person that says BAME people can’t post here.

@Orchidflower1 this is really a situation where it pays to closely examine the T&C’s

I was interested, even excited, at the idea of genetic testing, and seriously considered undertaking both the family history and health screening elements through 23andme.

Finger on the button, I decided that, given that I was sending off my DNA in a little tube, I really should understand what I was doing and how it would be handled. I was really concerned reading the T&C’s. Especially when I realised that the testing / data storage etc would be done away from UK legal jurisdiction. As I understand it legal rules in relation to the handling of such data vary widely between countries.

In my opinion, and I know it is just my opinion, we have no ideas how genetic data could be used in the future. What you are thinking of as a lovely gift could come back to really bite your DD at some stage in the future.

At the very least she might have to declare she has undertaken genetic testing when applying for Insurance, a Mortgage etc and she might be asked to disclose the results.

If it was me I would think first principles. Your DD”s DNA is intensely personal and once shared can’t be unshared. Is it worth sending it off in a tube to receive back data which is probably of marginal value.

The marginal value aspect was subsequently brought home to me recently.

In the last two years I have had some Consultant requested genetic testing. I have a health condition and am taking part in a project run by Great Ormond Street to try and identify the genetic coding of that condition. We have been disappointed that in my initial tests they couldn’t identify the specific genes causing my issue. However when discussing that it has been made clear to me that genetic testing is still very much in its infancy. I will be being recalled every two years to retest.

If GOS with all their sophisticated testing protocols can’t find what they are looking for, I now very much doubt the value of testing being undertaken by 23andme, Ancestry etc.

Thank you @Flyingsouthagain that’s a very valid point. If such a prestigious institution as GOSH is still describing things as new then it’s something to take note of.

Tbh the mortgage thing hasn’t even crossed my mind. I think this issue is once they have your dna, they’re not giving it back!

I know once she’s 18 I legally can’t stop her doing it but I think I would encourage her to wait. Perhaps we can spend some time looking into family history another route.

Hi, I'm mixed race and using ancestry dna was really important for me to trace my black ancestry.

On the ancestry website most of the suggestions and files are from my English side so I felt that this was the only way for me to see more of where I am from.

It was really interesting to see that my Jamaican side were actually Nigerian and Congo and I also had some Native Colombian.

Another interesting aspect was that me and my sisters had different ratios of black to white and different ratios of countries despite having the same mum and dad.

Ancestry DNA also show you distant relatives in other countries that have also done the test and some people have pictures of themselves which was very interesting to see if we had similar features.

@Orchidflower1

Because *@hibye123* I’ve found kindness, support and conversation on this board. Please don’t be that person that says BAME people can’t post here.

But this isn't a BAME board is it? This is a BMN board. 'This board exists primarily for Black Mumsnetters' really says it all. Your choice of posting on the BMN board instead of the Multicultural board (where that's literally a board that applies to your family set up) is really interesting. That's all

Another interesting aspect was that me and my sisters had different ratios of black to white and different ratios of countries despite having the same mum and dad.

That’s exactly why Dd was interested. I’m MR as is Dh ( we make a very diverse pair!) and yet my siblings are very different looking as are my dc.

@hibye123 in the nicest possible way, you’ve come on my thread just to be negative and nitpick and that’s really not in the spirit of things on any board, particularly this one.

I’ve spent my life being too dark/ too white for some people and I will not allow you to police what I put on my thread. It’s unkind and there is no need. If you don’t want to read my thread, just scroll on by.

The multicultural board is even quieter than BMN. I like it here, I’m not hurting you. We should raise each other up from our different lived experiences not pull each other down.

I've clicked on your post the same way I click on any post posted on the BMN board. Only when reading it did it appear that you may not have been black as you mentioned having a MR family. Hence why my question of why you've chosen to post on this board instead of the Multicultural board. A board that seems as if it fits your situation more accurately. If you take that as me being negative then so be it.

Isn't it funny how I'm a Black woman on the BMN board getting told by a non Black women that my comment isn't in the 'spirit of things on any board, especially this one.'
The irony.

No one's policing anything, I simply asked a logical question. As I said on my thread about non Black women commenting on this board which you also commented on, this is the Internet and no one can control where anyone decides to post.

You're posting here because you like it here, you've found nice people and support on here yet you're not posting on here because this board actually applies to you.
You're not posting on the Multicultural board because it's even slower here even though that's a board that actually applies to you and your family.
All very interesting, enjoy your thread and I won't respond to you again as there's simply no need

@hibye123
Are you saying that a mixed race person is not black enough to use the Black MN board? It sounds to me like you are by calling the OP a “nonblack woman.” Keep in mind here that most black people in the Americas are in fact MR due to legacy of slave rape....would you tell the average African American with white slave owner DNA, that they are “nonblack”?

Point me to where the OP said she's mixed race? The OP stated that she has a mixed race family when saying 'I wholeheartedly support keeping our cultural and emotional values as a MR family' but hasn't stated whether she's mxied race or not hence why I'm saying 'non Black.' It doesn't make sense for me to just assume the OP is mixed race. Mixed race doesn't always mean 'half white, half black' or that they necessarily have any black in them so why would I assume the OP is 'black enough' to use this board. What you're saying doesn't actually make any sense.

To me, anyone who is mixed race (half white, half black) is mixed race. They're not black, they're not white, they're mixed race. Mixed race and black is not the same thing and we don't face the same issues in life and within society. Loads of mixed race people identify as black and who am I to tell anyone how to identify as.

It's not my aim to derail the OPs post as I can see she's had many helpful replies. I asked her a question and she answered which is more than enough.
This is another conversation in itself which can be discussed on my thread 'Comments from non black women' on the BMN board

@hibye123
Op stated I’m MR as is Dh ( we make a very diverse pair!

In the post before you said she was a “nonblack woman”

So because you're mixed race that automatically means you have black in you?
I have a friend who is half Iranian and half Filipino, she classes herself as mixed race as she has two different parents from ethnic backgrounds. I have a friend who is half Irish and half Moroccan, also says they're mixed race. Two mixed race people that do not have any black in them. If the OP stated she had black in her then the terminology used would have been different. However she didn't.

Like I said, I wouldn't just assume someone who is mixed is strictly half black and half white that makes no sense

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@hibye123
Are you saying that a mixed race person is not black enough to use the Black MN board? It sounds to me like you are by calling the OP a “nonblack woman.” Keep in mind here that most black people in the Americas are in fact MR due to legacy of slave rape....would you tell the average African American with white slave owner DNA, that they are “nonblack”?[/quote]
This is important. Don't fall into the trap of demanding credentials. That's the other extreme. It's a commercially run forum at the end of the day.

Some people will say "mixed". I say I am black, but others may say I'm mixed, or describe me as mixed because of historical stuff. ( See Jam's thread on "how would you describe yourself". Quite a few people on that thread don't like "black" as a descriptor, including yourself Jam, I think at one point you say "brown")

Then there are the goady squatters who have latched onto the term but actually secretly mean "mixed" London/Birmingham White IYSWIM. Let's address that issue, the appropriation of terminology to disguise bad intent. You can't "see" people here, so careful on this path and challenges.

@hibye123
I wouldn't just assume someone who is mixed is strictly half black and half white that makes no sense

No, it just appeared to me from the posts that you assumed that OP was MR but with no black or even if she did, that was still not black enough to be black?

OP stated I’m MR as is DH and then you wrote in the post after that I'm a Black woman on the BMN board getting told by a non Black women that my comment isn't in the 'spirit of things on any board (referring back to a comment OP made to you,)

So it looked to me that you were clearly assuming that a MR OP was definitely nonblack? So even if she were MR with black + whatever, that isn’t black to you, that is nonblack? Which you did assert by saying:

To me, anyone who is mixed race (half white, half black) is mixed race. They're not black, they're not white, they're mixed race. Mixed race and black is not the same thing

I’m just trying to understand why you felt a need to challenge OP for posting her thread in the BMN board?