Who will you be cheering for?

[Maggiethecat]

Excited for the women's 100m sprint in Tokyo today. Happy that Dina is in good shape but defo cheering for the Jamaicans.

How is it in your house when a british athlete is up against someone from the country of your family heritage?

Erik Schinegger and Foekje Dillema are white athletes competing at world level who were found to have male chromosones and banned.

From a New York Times article. I've just skim read it.

Critics have argued that it has not been precisely determined how much of an advantage elevated testosterone levels provide; that treating athletes to lower testosterone levels is unnecessary and can have side effects; and that the restrictions disproportionately affect athletes from developing nations. The World Medical Association has said that the restrictions are based on “weak evidence” and has urged doctors not to help enforce them.

www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/sports/olympics/olympics-testosterone-namibia.html

Yes this is the same issue Caster Semenya faced. It came to a head because all 3 of the Rio 800m medallists had XY chromosomes.

To be clear, Caster and Mboma have XY chromosomes, testes and not ovaries, testosterone in the male range and the ability to 'use' that. I.e. they have gone through male puberty not female puberty. It would almost certainly become apparent when they failed to menstruate, if not before.

The reason they are legally female is because at birth their external genitalia led them to be marked as female on their birth certificate. Had further detail been available at birth (blood test at birth, for example) they would have been marked as male.

This condition (5-alpha reductase deficiency) certainly occurs in white people (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Schinegger) for an example also picked up at the Olympics.

Probably we notice it more in black athletes as the crux of the issue is 'XY chromosomes that would usually classify one as male not being picked up at birth or soon after' and that possibly occurs less in countries with majority white populations.

@Mumsnut - I don't know, but would having male chromosomes (and internal sex organs in Erik's case) be considered the same as having high levels of testosterone?

Would anyone ever disqualify an unusually tall woman, for example, to compete in the pole vault where her height would be a distinct advantage?

Research by World Rugby has found that genetically male athletes who have gone through puberty throw 30 per cent further, have 40 per cent higher endurance, punch 160 per cent heavier and sprint 15 per cent faster than natal females - advantages which don't simply disappear when testosterone is suppressed, since the additional muscle and other physical benefits are retained.

Caster Semanya and Mbona also have male chromosones and internal sex organs though Maggie.

Thankyou @Mumsnut for that information. I was looking at Erik's story onlne. So he was female at birth (1948) and won the ski championship back in 1966 as a woman.

Thankyou also @Avocadowoman for taking the time to explain some more.

All this time since 1966.

How cruel it is to have your aspirations dashed at the Olympics itself, and not to know this, until you are competing at this level And then to be told you can run in a differnt race because, the testosterone rules don't apply to that one.

What an unholy mess this is.

From the NY Times article referenced above:

'The World Athletics rules do not restrict athletes who simply have naturally high testosterone levels. They govern intersex athletes with a disorder of sexual development known as 46, XY DSD. These athletes have an X and Y chromosome in each cell, the typical male pattern; genitalia that are not typically male or female; and testosterone in the male range, which, doctors say, suggests testicular tissue or internal testes.'

It is a very difficult and nuanced situation. Heart-breaking for those involved. Imagine believing you are female until told otherwise by an IOC official?

It is indeed a mess! Mboma et al are deemed intersex, with all the advantage that confers - then why can they compete with women at the shorter distance race when males sprint faster than women?

It is a very difficult and nuanced situation. Heart-breaking for those involved. Imagine believing you are female until told otherwise by an IOC official?
Isn't it? I see that they were only told this after an assessment in Italy in July.
And then the whole world knows your heartbreak.
Deveatating and cruel in the way it is done.

There must be another way than that.

Devastating, (sorry ...I've awful eyesight)

Are men better at EVERY sport? Does anyone know whether typically female characteristics offer an advantage in any sport, event or category?

This is quite a good website showing female olympians vs high school boys:

boysvswomen.com/#/

Or this one (you have to do a bit more work yourself here, but it shows mens/womens/boys/girls at different ages in athletics

www.thepowerof10.info/rankings/

In ultra endurance events women may have an edge:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-49284389

twitter.com/Unity_MoT/status/1407697045897592834/photo/1

This picture is also useful for illustrating normal testosterone ranges for males, females, and the limits on the maximum testosterone levels used to allow Laurel Hubbard and Caster Semenya to compete in female events.

Thankyou for the links Avocadowoman. I'm having a good look at them.

Love the endurance article.!
In January, British ultra-runner Jasmin Paris became the first woman to win the 268-mile Montane Spine Race in the UK, finishing the course in 83 hours, 12 minutes and 23 seconds, smashing the course record by 12 hours. And that included time to express breast milk along the way.

Brilliant!

I know! Talk about superwoman.

So do they have maximum levels of oestrogen or progesterone for these ultra-runners (male or female)?

I cheered hard for Kirani James today 🇬🇩 and all the Caribbean athletes and team GB, they've had a really tough time with injuries and false starts this year, feel bad for them. Love the Olympics.

Ok, this is not being competitive (seriously) - I do like Dina, admire her guts, strength, intelligence, determination but I wonder if she has lost some credibility about her injury which forced her out of the 200m but which seems not to have prevented her from running a good leg in the relay heat?

Of course I know little about sports injuries and how long they take to heal but it does seem a big leap from her being out of one race for injury but running seemingly unhindered so soon after.

And I'm not saying that she was feigning injury because as world champion she must have wanted to run that 200m - so is there possibly something else going on?

I'm wondering if the injury meant that she would be less likely to medal in the 200 than if she had a few more days to rest/prepare for the relays where it's likely that with her contribution the team could win it?

If that was a calculated team decision I can see how personally difficult that would be for her.

Makes perfect sense to me.

If you are a medal contender but there is no way you would win medal with the injury you are carrying, why risk your injury further?

If there is a chance of a medal in the relay, it is a shorter race, then go for it and take that risk for the medal.

Dina is out there to win medals, not at all to make yup numbers or gain experience, she's beyond that now, she's done her time going out in the semis, coming 6th etc. She's a big dog now and she's playing it defensively.

@Jamdown123 - I think that when I saw her post 100m interview and how devastated she was I thought that she had actually caused harm to an existing injury by running the 100 and that's why they pulled out of the 200. And that's why I was surprised that she was in the relays so soon after.

But you're right - it seems it was a more tactical decision in pulling from the 200, given the injury, to give a better chance for the relay.

She'll come back in the individual stronger - she's a tough girl!

Happy Independence Day btw!

And to you!! Emancipation day celebrations were last weekend and I still muddle them up with Independence Day

Think I will celebrate with a patty

www.voice-online.co.uk/sport/athletics/2021/08/06/independence-day-win-for-jamaica-as-4x100m-women-strike-gold-at-tokyo-olympics/

Wan two tree four!