Why does it descend into a bun fight?

[Orchidflower1]

Why do people have to do competitive racism? Not a TAAT but inspired by a thread about a Jewish lady who is currently terrified to go out because of the violence and antisemitism in her area. All she wanted was a hand hold and to vent. But people are playing top trumps racism along her thread.

I don’t really know what I want from this thread to be honest. I think I just want to say argghhhhh -racism and all its types are awful enough without people falling over themselves to say one group of people have it worse than others.
Arghhh why can’t people be kind, be nice and not be Xenophobic, racist twonks!!!

And breathe orchid!!

I just wanted to come here to say that really. Please don’t feel you need to reply- I’m happy just to vent but any thoughts welcome.

Yea, I’ve been tearing my hair out on the “skin tone plaster thread” too. I shouldn’t have. I really really shouldn’t have. Now I’m enraged and can’t sleep. Ffs

I've been on that thread. It's awful.

I don't usually post on here but saw it in active. I'm not black fyi.

The answer from me is that MN has a massive amount of posters. Loads of posters are subconsciously or consciously 'ist' against various groups. However most don't like to face up to their prejudices. So say all sorts of stuff to justify their stance to themselves.

Threads like that one, and the ones about getting this board set up. Are really unsettling. Because yes you get trolls and people with extreme views. But I think most of them were/how people genuinely think and feel.

I haven’t seen the thread OP, but I’ve seen it on other threads and I completely agree with you.

Sometimes you just need to support a poster on issues like you describe, and if you can’t, you really should just shut up. It’s not a competition, sometimes you just need to listen and acknowledge it’s wrong.

Yes the race to find out who is the most marginalized group. It all starts with this concept of intersectionality and adding up points to see who is the most oppressed and how you're only allowed to complain to people less oppressed than you. It's all ridiculous.

We should listen to people, all people with legitimate struggles and try to understand and help where we can.

When we argue over who is oppressed more we just waste energy that could be used to help people out or even just listen to them and let them vent.

The other thing too is that we have ended up in this weird place where people start to become proud of being oppressed. It's really weird the competition to find out who is most oppressed, it's not a prize people should be trying to win.

It's not coming from the place they like to think it is.

Oppression Olympics = I want you to stop talking about this because I don't want to hear it

And I think the whole bastardisation of intersectionality (which is s sensible thing) is for some people because they don't want to feel guilty (even though they're not being asked to) and for some people is about resentment of all the 'special treatment' and extra stuff that they somehow think is unfair.

In the end it's nothing to do with anything apart from dodgy attitudes, resentment, and feeling that they are being made the 'bad guy' and that's not fair (even though they aren't).

On the thread about antisemitic attacks. The thing I found peculiar was the insistence that it was another religious group who would be doing it. My posts about how antisemitism and vandalism etc have been going on for years. And that there are far right groups in the UK who are antisemitic and are most definitely not made up of Muslim men were ignored.

In the end. It's just a worrying defence mechanism /driven by a perceived idea that lots of other groups get special treatment and their group and to get cast as baddies.

That's what I think anyway.

It's awful to see it play out in real time on here.

If you're proud of being oppressed then you're not actually oppressed would be a shorter answer.

The comparison of far right white men being more anti semitic than muslim men is just an example of the same thing (and I would agree with you). It's just more of this race to the bottom crap and we are only allowed talking about the most oppressed group or the biggest oppressor and everything in the middle is being silenced.

Ah no I wasn't comparing or arguing that.

I was attempting to point out to a number of posters that blaming ALL antisemitism on UK Muslims was ridiculous.

I got no response obv.

Because IMO the saying oh yes all the antisemitism is from UK Muslims is much more comfortable than even considering that loads of white UK people are and have been antisemitic, to a greater or lesser extent, for ages and ages.

Morning all, I genuinely wasn’t expecting this many replies to my rant into the ether!

I think that’s the thing- by arguing over who is the most persecuted people forget there is is a bigger thing to fight for.

I think MN likes to play race to the bottom. You see it all the time when people post about their mental health issues or money issues.

OP it's a divide and conquer tactic.

Likewise talking about f*ing plasters - this topic comes up every couple of months - when things like rules on acceptable hair styles in school have more of an impact on non-white people.

@Lndnmummy

Yea, I’ve been tearing my hair out on the “skin tone plaster thread” too. I shouldn’t have. I really really shouldn’t have. Now I’m enraged and can’t sleep. Ffs

Yes. I skimmed through that thread, and it did not take long to see the usual terse comments from some posters. I reported the thread early on because I know how it always goes once Black or Asian is mentioned in the title. MNHQ do not even bother to comment on such threads, which to me is not good enough.

@NiceGerbil

I've been on that thread. It's awful.

I don't usually post on here but saw it in active. I'm not black fyi.

The answer from me is that MN has a massive amount of posters. Loads of posters are subconsciously or consciously 'ist' against various groups. However most don't like to face up to their prejudices. So say all sorts of stuff to justify their stance to themselves.

Threads like that one, and the ones about getting this board set up. Are really unsettling. Because yes you get trolls and people with extreme views. But I think most of them were/how people genuinely think and feel.

I agree. That is what is hard to have to know and deal with day in day out.

I’m not black but asian, it is so frustrating, I note today that a poster is telling a black MNer to go back to BMN and others are comparing black people to smurfs.

MN allowing these posts to stand shows us exactly which side MN is on.

To all those on here whose life's are being impacted by Racism/ Anti-Semitism, and Islamophobia.

@SimonJT

I’m not black but asian, it is so frustrating, I note today that a poster is telling a black MNer to go back to BMN and others are comparing black people to smurfs.

MN allowing these posts to stand shows us exactly which side MN is on.

This. I agree. I reported the thread and commented to MNHQ about their lack of even a comment from them. Their silence speaks volumes.

@C130 I reported a poster who changed their name to the name of a very racist film that has now been destroyed, MN ‘looked into it’ and decided it was okay to leave. It was akin to allowing a username that glorifiies hitler.

Because yes you get trolls and people with extreme views. But I think most of them were/how people genuinely think and feel

This. I was on that plaster thread too and that was the most shocking part.

I'm white, and I understand this isn't my space so I'm just posting in solidarity with the OP and others who are expressing frustration, and I'll go back to lurking.

There were several posters on that thread I wanted to send virtual flowers to, continuously attempting to shut down irrational logic and mental gymnastics. I work with a few black women who live in the US, and from our discussions they are at various levels between tired and exhausted, particularly this past year. I always believed them, but the thread today served as another reminder of how exhausting this must be to be engage with.

A "probably well meaning" white person starts a discussion. Black people respond differently (surprise!). White people fall over themselves with some from of non-issue or ridicule. Comments get more... just more. White people comparisons, black people comparisons. Mumsnet does nothing. People argue. White privilege. Offence taken. I can't have white privilege I'm white poor. Mumsnet does nothing. Outright racism. Mumsnet does nothing. Mumsnetters completely fail to grasp what racism even means. Mumsnet does nothing.

Who gets a conversation foisted upon them and who ends up even more exhausted..?

The only thing I hope is that in not shutting it down, someone took something from that thread that might help them learn and teach their children better.

And final point on moderation or lack of it (should MNHQ ever read this or anyone be interested in my completely anecdotal experience). I find it odd? noteworthy? that just a couple of weeks ago in my US-centric professional group someone was completely removed and effectively sacked, by average and not particularly "woke" white men, for stating exactly the same comment I've seen said and go unchallenged on a thread here around the same time. Reported that comment and nothing was done.
What is going so wrong in awareness and education of adults, both on MN and in wider society, that two white men (one a trump voter if that's relevant) in the US, with all it's problems and systems, have at the very least learned to spot a dog whistle / racially charged comment while we and the entire Mumsnet moderation team are somehow incapable? Like I said... odd.

I was about to say almost like two different worlds and I guess in some ways they are... but when you stack trump voting America against leafy left-leaning Mumsnet... who would you (mnhq) expect to come up better on the subject of moderating racism?

[quote SimonJT]@C130 I reported a poster who changed their name to the name of a very racist film that has now been destroyed, MN ‘looked into it’ and decided it was okay to leave. It was akin to allowing a username that glorifiies hitler.[/quote]
It is truly astonishing, and disgraceful what seems to pass by the mods at MNHQ sometimes. I get so fed up with it all. All we can continue to do is to report posts, and hope that they "get it". I live in hope that they will do something about the ugly side of MN.

This just popped up in active - I'm not black so I hope it's ok to post?
But yes, totally agree with you. Very, very sad and all forms of racism or discrimination in general should be listened to without the "I've got it worse though".

I agree that I think there is a vast disparity with the moderating from MNHQ. Some things get picked up- others are just “observed.”

I think there is inconsistency within MNHQ.

@janlevinson

This just popped up in active - I'm not black so I hope it's ok to post? But yes, totally agree with you. Very, very sad and all forms of racism or discrimination in general should be listened to without the "I've got it worse though".

Thanks @janlevinson

That’s exactly it. It’s like the infighting gets the better of some people.

To use a diy an analogy-
Imagine neighbour one has a broken window, neighbour two has a broken door. They both have things that need resolving- one is not worse than the other. But if they worked together they could get a builder in to fix both issues maybe save heart ache ( and cash!). This is what it should be like.

Instead these neighbours are so busy picking at whose situation is worse and why that the rest of their houses fall down!

@Orchidflower1 That's a really good analogy

@SimonJT

I’m not black but asian, it is so frustrating, I note today that a poster is telling a black MNer to go back to BMN and others are comparing black people to smurfs.

MN allowing these posts to stand shows us exactly which side MN is on.

@SimonJT dare I ask which thread that is?

And in regarding MNHQ, I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re akin to Facebook. They’re deliberately turning a blind eye to the malignant social action that’s occurring in their platform in order to make money. The amount of racist, anti-vax, and transphobic dross that comes out of this site is legendary beyond its boundaries. MN is notorious for it around the web, and not just in British spaces either. At this point I can only conclude that the MN team is in and of itself racist and conservative but likes making its money pretending it’s liberal. Their actions say otherwise.