African father in law

[Daftpink123]

I dont know if this is the right forum for this but I dont know where else to post it. FIL is African born but UK citizen, DH is born and brought up in UK. I am not African. I am really struggling with FIL and DH keeps telling me its just culture but now I'm thinking "culture" is more of an excuse and I cant stand FIL behaviour anymore.

FIL is so arrogant and lazy. When he comes to see DS1, he sits down immediately and doesnt get up again until its time for him to leave. He wants me to serve him his food to the sofa, take his plate away for him, even I have to give him DS- he wont even go and play with him, DS has to go to him. The world has to revolve around him. FIL keeps telling me, he wants me to have more kids so I can grow "his" family. When I was pregnant with DS and we first told him, all he said repeatedly for months that he was going to be a grandfather. Never once asked about how I was doing in pregnancy, or asked how he can help us with preparing for a baby etc. Its always about him. When he comes over to ours, he sits there on his phone until I give him DS. When DS runs away, hes back on his phone immediately. He even sits there with a headset on the whole time. When he came to see DS the first time he was born, he expected me/DH to make him dinner ( I was 3 days post c-section). He didnt bring us any food or asked if he could help us in any way- not that he needs to help or bring food but the thought would be nice. He then got upset at DH as we werent going to his house frequently enough with the new baby (he lives an hour away and its so hard to travel with a newborn in the early days). We told FIL he is welcome at ours anytime to see DS but he refused to come for a while as he expected us to go to him all the time. Last time he came, as soon as he walked in, he said DS looks the happiest with DH and DH is his favourite parent. It made me sooo angry.

Now he keeps dictating how to bring up DS. He tells me which clubs he wants DS to attend eg football club. But he expects me and DH to pay for it. He makes snide remarks when I told him DS doesnt eat chilli yet and when he saw DS eating avocado for lunch, he pulled a face and remarked why we are giving him that type of food- I have no idea whats wrong with avocados. When we didnt name DS the same name as him, all hell broke loose- how egotistical does one have to be to have a grandchild named after you! There are loads more examples.
MIL has passed away.

I'm sick to death of him and cant stand to see him anymore. Its got to the point, I secretly want DS to dislike him so we dont have to see him much. DH has tried talking to him but FIL wont listen and DH says he just doesnt understand my viewpoints at all. FIL now thinks I'm uppity and a "snowflake". DH feels torn and now I dont think hes doing enough to sort out his father's rude,,lazy behaviour which is causing so many arguments.

For African families out there- is this "culture" or am I right in thinking this is arrogant and lazy behaviour? Any suggestions as to what I can do to help FIL see the impact of his actions?

Omg a bowl of hot soup. I literally visualised the shading away at bad habits in tte beginning. However, there is always big scoops in the middle. Now that's a task. The end is lot of scraping at what's left. Genius saying. I am taking this with me. 😁

I know you are not making that shit up. The next conversation for black families is how first borns or children who go on to do well are treated. Most of their money ends up paying for extended family members. this actually hinders their progress. "The It's called black tax". It's a theory that has been growing and hopefully more studies in the future.

@Daftpink123 Ugh, that sounds really tough. My post sounds really naive in hindsight, reading it back. I’m sorry. It sounds exhausting. I’m glad your dh and his sisters are supportive. Sending love

@debbrianna you make a very interesting point. DH and I are highly educated professionals. I grew up in a household with not very much but my parents placed a high value on education which helped me to do well. I am now at the top of my field and we earn very well. In fact I earn over 2 x DH. I don't disgruntle helping family members out financially at all. But we cannot afford 2 mortgages and bringing up kids in a very expensive city of the UK.
DH and I have discussed indian families a lot (many friends). They only pass money down generations and not up, even when elders had hardly any money at all. They made do with what little they had. This enabled them to progress in the UK and indian people generally are now in the middle classes, whereas older indians were more working class. They also keep finances within their nuclear family and enable direct children to benefit.

I struggle with these questions. Especially on the issue of "Black tax". My parents have worked hard to ensure that it stopped with them and that we wouldn't have to worry about them like they spent their lives taking care of their children and their parents and siblings.

But I'm aware that no matter how well off someone I meet is, they may carry that burden and I understand why. So I know choosing to be with someone who has that responsibility means taking on that responsibility so long as they themselves feel it is a role they want to fulfil- and it wouldn't be fair to pressure them not to do it because of my culture, not understanding it, it being foreign to me or not expected of me. Meaning my decision to be with someone, means this is heavily considered, my parents made sure U didn't have to consider this so do.I want to take someone else's family on? - maybe not. I think there's some nuance and understanding that is definitely needed when dating someone of a different culture.

Protests of why should I do this and this is not okay, my family don't accept it, how dare his grabby parents/family ask for money get my back up because it means either total lack of respect for the other's culture or very important discussions were overlooked.

Someone mentioned how having BMN allows them to ask questions relevant to Black people because they don't have to explain things like "sending money back home" or have to explain why answers like just ignore them/cut them off/don't give them anything aren't helpful, and this kinda gives that vibe off to me (well the issue about FIL and the mortgage - not saying you should or shouldn't pay it).

I honestly wish you the best resolving this. I don't have anything much to help. I see both sides. Culture is dynamic and constantly changing. I'm not Nigerian but my family are from Southern Africa (more than 1 country) and I kinda get why you have an issue with some of the things you say but I also get your FIL being a certain way and thinking/acting the way he does. He does seem more unhelpful than most, but I can see why he is the way he is.

I would say just do whatever you and your husband are comfortable with.

(I also really don't care for the comparisons of how well Indian families fit in and adjust to British life and values versus Africans. The model immigrant stereotype does a disservice to all minorities and these are two different communities with different challenges and economic opportunities - black tax is a real pertinent issue derived from years of colonialism and slavery even on the African continent, where we are only becoming economic participants recently in the last half century and are playing catch up. There are many reasons why it exists and the ecosystem built around it that allows communities and extended family members without similar opportunities to survive although it is open to abuse at times. Please be mindful of that. Pitting communities against each other is a massive no no)

Agreed. I'm not even sure we know enough about the dynamics within British Indian households as the one time I came across a black person married to an Indian, they were dealing with the same issues. they also have challengesunique to thier history and journeys same as we do.

I wasn't going to address the Africa thing as OP addressed it and we moved on. But it's niggling me and I think it needs to be said whenever the issue comes up to hit home the message.

I don't think it is the same as referring to the Caribbean, I don't know enough about the Caribbean to assume all the culture is similar and use a blanket generalisation just like I am yet to see people generalise about European culture. I would assume it is more like saying Southern Africa which may have some similarities but still very , very different. I always therefore afford anyone from the Caribbean, the specificity of their own country of origin rather than the blanket reference of being from the Caribbean.

Africa in comparison is massive. 54 countries with over 1500 tribes and 2000 distinct languages which then split into their own dialects and distinct cultures. It is culturally, linguistically and genetically diverse. They are few generalisations you can make about Africa and/or Africans that are universal. If we say proximity=cultural similarity then Nigerians and Ghanaians have more in common with British people than they do with South Africans, with Nigeria and Ghana being closer to the UK than South Africa. In contrast Europe has only 300 languages but we are quick to refer to Italians, Germans, Swedes etc.

The cultural differences between people in the same African country are vast at times, let alone the same region or the entire continent. I don't know how to answer questions that refer to "African" people/culture as I'm always stumped. Do you mean Kenya, Congo, Nigeria, Botswana? All vastly distinct with their own cultures and languages in each country. To be fair it is why I ignored this post until after the OP stated where her FIL was from.

Just something to be mindful of.

You will find male chauvinism in all cultures and communities. That your family, OP, is not like this is NOT because they are not African. That big fool Rees-Mogg is not at all African, thank you lord, and hasn't changed even one of his 6 children's nappies. It might take on certain cultural hues depending on where the man is from, but sexist men who lack in empathy, which is how your FIL appears to be, are everywhere.

I'm truly sick of the way black fathers are decried.

And about paying the mortgage. I can't really comment on that because I don't know your FIL's situation, nor his relationship with his son.

I can say this: I have noticed that children who are not African appear to be quite stingy and mean to their parents. Always counting pennies they spend on their elders and calculating the gifts in their wills. Is this a European or 'non-African' thing?

Thank you@DastardlytheFriendlyMutt for that bit of education.

@Sugarintheplum

And about paying the mortgage. I can't really comment on that because I don't know your FIL's situation, nor his relationship with his son.

I can say this: I have noticed that children who are not African appear to be quite stingy and mean to their parents. Always counting pennies they spend on their elders and calculating the gifts in their wills. Is this a European or 'non-African' thing?

I have come across this too. Regarding the Will.

And some be putting parents in institutions and parents homes in trusts for tax planning and inheritance maximising purposes. Fascinating stuff, by my village standards, elderly folk are discarded disrespected while being expected to continue to slave for the kids in thier old age when they should be enjoying the 'fruits of thier labour' . It's in the perspective.

"elderly folk are discarded disrespected while being expected to continue to slave for the kids in their old age"

And don't mention parents providing free childcare while they're able and then relegated to the annual christmas visit!

I will only say that this is not part of Jamaican culture!!

There is also some element of having to adapt mindset, behaviours and ways of living when living outside of the home country and as generations progress and possibly when family members marry outside of the "culture". Look at indian people- they have really adapted to the British culture and integrate well into society. Not that FIL has to do any of the above, its his choice

Hi OP, bringing Indian people into this issue as comparison to African people, where the Indian people in your story are 'model minorities' to emulate was really not the best thing to do.
What has one got to do with the other? What has Asia got to do with Africa? Shall we compare Europe and the Americas? I'd like to ask you and DH to look at how you're comparing these communities in this way because you're stereotyping both of them.

I also know many European immigrants in Africa don't assimilate and adapt to the different African cultures they live within, what with many turning up their noses at the culture, "expat-ing" left, right, center instead of acknowledging they're immigrants too and staying in their segregated expat/immigrant European communities and neighbourhoods or worse, taking over and colonizing. Let's not talk about people integrating and adapting where they move to because it’s not the forte of Europeans.

You have a FIL problem as do many people, it could be because of his upbringing, specific culture, personality or all of it, as everyone's issues are. He doesn't represent all Africans or Nigerians anymore than my European/British FIL (who is a 'model European' and married to my amazing African MIL) represents all Europeans/Britons.

I see numerous posts on MN about lazy men who do no housework or childcare, and leave food wrappers and dirty clothes all over the place. Their despairing wives are given all sorts of advice to deal with the "Manchild", mostly advising to leave him

Post upon post.

I don't read then automatically think all White men are lazy due to a cultural and upbringing thing.

You have a FIL issue OP, and have resorted to a "Black men are lazy" insulting stereotype (which came about after the end of enslavement when Black people were no longer required to toil unto death for free, & that irked racists somewhat...) to describe issue.

Or perhaps you're being specific about continental African men - which is just as wrong. So you don't come out of this well either.

DastardlytheFriendlyMutt
I don't think it is the same as referring to the Caribbean, I* don't know enough about the Caribbean to assume all the culture is similar and use a blanket generalisation just like I* am yet to see people generalise about European culture

Exactly. I am Caribbean, not from an English speaking island. Islands have different names for foodstuffs, recipes, customs, heritage days and events etc. Different accents. It always surprises me when some aren't even aware of that.

After all, the countries of the UK aren't all the same in respect of the above are they?

I think white men migh be more imclined to pretend to be helpful around the house when there was an audience.

When i had my baby, there was a very young man (not raised in the uk, raised in ghana he said) and he just announced "no i dont need to watch the baby being changed or bathed, i wont be doing that". Midwife was irritated with him. She was black but raised in uk and had a go at him. Water off a duck's back. He shrugged.

My x paid great attention to the demonstration on how to bath baby. Never ever did it though. Not til she was a toddler who could stand up.

@Daftpink123

I dont know if this is the right forum for this but I dont know where else to post it. FIL is African born but UK citizen, DH is born and brought up in UK. I am not African. I am really struggling with FIL and DH keeps telling me its just culture but now I'm thinking "culture" is more of an excuse and I cant stand FIL behaviour anymore.

FIL is so arrogant and lazy. When he comes to see DS1, he sits down immediately and doesnt get up again until its time for him to leave. He wants me to serve him his food to the sofa, take his plate away for him, even I have to give him DS- he wont even go and play with him, DS has to go to him. The world has to revolve around him. FIL keeps telling me, he wants me to have more kids so I can grow "his" family. When I was pregnant with DS and we first told him, all he said repeatedly for months that he was going to be a grandfather. Never once asked about how I was doing in pregnancy, or asked how he can help us with preparing for a baby etc. Its always about him. When he comes over to ours, he sits there on his phone until I give him DS. When DS runs away, hes back on his phone immediately. He even sits there with a headset on the whole time. When he came to see DS the first time he was born, he expected me/DH to make him dinner ( I was 3 days post c-section). He didnt bring us any food or asked if he could help us in any way- not that he needs to help or bring food but the thought would be nice. He then got upset at DH as we werent going to his house frequently enough with the new baby (he lives an hour away and its so hard to travel with a newborn in the early days). We told FIL he is welcome at ours anytime to see DS but he refused to come for a while as he expected us to go to him all the time. Last time he came, as soon as he walked in, he said DS looks the happiest with DH and DH is his favourite parent. It made me sooo angry.

Now he keeps dictating how to bring up DS. He tells me which clubs he wants DS to attend eg football club. But he expects me and DH to pay for it. He makes snide remarks when I told him DS doesnt eat chilli yet and when he saw DS eating avocado for lunch, he pulled a face and remarked why we are giving him that type of food- I have no idea whats wrong with avocados. When we didnt name DS the same name as him, all hell broke loose- how egotistical does one have to be to have a grandchild named after you! There are loads more examples.
MIL has passed away.

I'm sick to death of him and cant stand to see him anymore. Its got to the point, I secretly want DS to dislike him so we dont have to see him much. DH has tried talking to him but FIL wont listen and DH says he just doesnt understand my viewpoints at all. FIL now thinks I'm uppity and a "snowflake". DH feels torn and now I dont think hes doing enough to sort out his father's rude,,lazy behaviour which is causing so many arguments.

For African families out there- is this "culture" or am I right in thinking this is arrogant and lazy behaviour? Any suggestions as to what I can do to help FIL see the impact of his actions?

Sounds exactly like my Nigerian FIL! Over the years I have learnt to smile and nod politely and ignore it!

If he is in my house of course I will make food for him and serve it to him, because he is elderly and as I would with any guest, but my DH also makes a point of giving FIL his food most of the time!

Ignore the unwanted advice, make a point of firmly stating your view and most importantly engineer the relationship into something you can really enjoy has always been my philosophy with FIL. I find that Actually underneath the cultural light misogyny, he is a kind and charming man, who is great fun!

My Nigerian MIL....,,,now that relationship is a whole different ball game!!!

If FIL is Yoruba just be grateful you don't have to bow lol.

Where are you from @Daftpink123? Context/perspective matters so your DH might not be wrong about 'culture' being the reason. I was brought up that age is a hierarchy. You earn elder status/class by raising good children who will enable you to enjoy it. That is our culture.

I'm Ghanaian and when my mum visits she sits the whole time and gets served, (ofc she would get up if asked to), but only a fool could call dMum lazy and arrogant.

Conversely, if dMumdid get up to help it would actually be a massive slight on dw. Like most people we are complex and we have our problems but Ghana and many other African countries can actually be more respectful of 'a woman's work' and 'womens' hierarchies', at the same time as being more patriarchal in other respects.

When I'm home alone my dMum will judge and interfere (too much and especially in the kitchen), but when dw is around she is the postcard demure elder.

Basically, Dw is prime minister, in reality she has all of the power. dMum is the queen she has the respect and privilege. Dw behaves deferentially to dM but it's all just pomp and ceremony.

@Skedaddle you have captured my culture perfectly as well.

My mum or MIL (any elder) getting up to "help" in my home would be a massive slight and I would struggle to get over it, as it would have been done on purpose to let me know I am a "lacking". I also wouldn't get up to help in a younger relative's home as it would be a slight, unless I know she is "modern" or know her fairly well and she is comfortable and wouldn't take offence. It is complex, and nuanced. One may ask but you help out at Auntie Suzy's but not Auntie Mary's, but it all differs on hierarchy, culture, the other's observance to it and whether or not they run their household more Western. I'd gladly help and get up if that is expected but I'm constantly codeswitching and don't expect my parents to do so, especially in my own home.

In my home I would be deferential to my MIL but both her and I know, I run the show, and I pass that on in someone else's home and so it goes on.

It's

These last 2 posts are exactly how things run in my DH family, except for the facades slip sometimes, which causes big drama!

My favourite is the awkward, young persons bob, in place of prostrating!

It is all very hard to navigate as an outsider and despite best intentions, sometimes I do wish I (and DH family themselves) could just be honest with how they feel, rather than being backed in to a corner by all the hierarchies.

I wouldn't say it's not being honest about the way they feel, it's a different culture and language and by their actions they have told you very plainly how they feel.

It's the same way non-Brits struggle to understand British people and wish they would just speak plainly or day what they mean instead of the double speak of British politeness greatbritishmag.co.uk/uk-culture/what-the-british-say-and-what-they-actually-mean/

But they learn they second language within the English language in order to navigate life in a different culture.

I think that's sadly what many people overlook or minimise or expect not to do when they meet someone of a different culture, particularly if they are with someone who is a minority in their country they expect their culture to always be the dominant one and never actually take the time to learn the nuances and language of their partner's culture. My own Black parents had to learn the differences between each other's cultures and have both embraced it and I would say the other is more knowledgeable than the other on their respective cultures.

I think it's something partners must be honest with their spouses about and what their own expectations are. But also be aware that they will be friction with some relatives if you choose not to bother with all that culture stuff when you socialise and either just not socialise with them or accept they will be occasional friction or falling out because of a perceived slight etc.

I wouldn't use the word facade as that has negative connotations and someone may be extremely accommodating of your way of doing things when it clashes majorly with theirs. The hierarchy is inly complex to those looking from the outside in but is second nature to us or quite clear to those who take the time to learn.

@Benelovencd

I wouldn't say it's not being honest about the way they feel, it's a different culture and language and by their actions they have told you very plainly how they feel.

It's the same way non-Brits struggle to understand British people and wish they would just speak plainly or day what they mean instead of the double speak of British politeness greatbritishmag.co.uk/uk-culture/what-the-british-say-and-what-they-actually-mean/

But they learn they second language within the English language in order to navigate life in a different culture.

I think that's sadly what many people overlook or minimise or expect not to do when they meet someone of a different culture, particularly if they are with someone who is a minority in their country they expect their culture to always be the dominant one and never actually take the time to learn the nuances and language of their partner's culture. My own Black parents had to learn the differences between each other's cultures and have both embraced it and I would say the other is more knowledgeable than the other on their respective cultures.

I think it's something partners must be honest with their spouses about and what their own expectations are. But also be aware that they will be friction with some relatives if you choose not to bother with all that culture stuff when you socialise and either just not socialise with them or accept they will be occasional friction or falling out because of a perceived slight etc.

I wouldn't use the word facade as that has negative connotations and someone may be extremely accommodating of your way of doing things when it clashes majorly with theirs. The hierarchy is inly complex to those looking from the outside in but is second nature to us or quite clear to those who take the time to learn.

I totally agree that it is really important to learn how it all works and what is expected, that is what I had tried to do. Initially did say that my DH should write a manual! In my experience with my DH family it is somewhat of a facade, because it seems to stop them from expressing their feelings to each other, eg you have to agree with what the oldest brother decrees simply because he is the oldest and of my DH don't go along with that and tow the line, then he is put under huge pressure by his mum and other siblings about it and then excluded. They all seem to clingy to the hierarchy and never be honest with each other. I find it hugely frustrating and I wont stick to it, I always give my honest view, if asked, regardless of who is asking! But you certainly suffer the consequences form doing that. I have a wonderful relationship with all my DH family, but sometimes being around them is like dodging bullets and I always feel that I have to be on my guard.

@yomommasmomma the issue hasnt been that I dont want to cook for FIL. I always ensure there is food for whoever comes over. I was listing examples of when I needed to be taken care of by family eg after having a c section and having to cook for FIL when I could hardly stand up straight or having a young baby when I hadnt had a chance to shower for 2 days. Its not that I dont ever want to cook for him. It is instances where I just need a bit of support, but I dont get it as I'm seen of being "lesser".

FIL is also not elderly. My perspective would be vastly different if he needed some help. He has money, fit and well, and very able. But he thinks DH should fund his life as he is his son. FIL only told DH this expectation after we were married. Its complicated as I earn 2 x of DH and my parents also help us out financially so I see it as effectively FIL wants my parents to help pay his life too.

@SkedaddIe @Benelovencd you may not want to get up and help those younger than you, but I dont want my DS to see me accepting this and think its OK to treat younger/female people this way. DH agrees with this and dislikes the hierarchical structures. Its also not just about me and me changing my viewpoints and expectations. FIL didnt help at Christmas when my parents were helping and wanted to be served by them too (see previous comment)- I cant also make my extended family/friends understand FIL too. I think things are a bit different when not everyone around you is part of the same culture- you may not help those younger than you but they already understand why you dont and accept it.

Many of FIL's expectations, he threw on DH after we were married and DH isnt happy about it. See money comment above. I understand DH's culture very well and I smile and nod to an extent.

I have adapted a great deal to fit in with DH's family and culture over the years. My view is that it is not just one-sided though. There has to be some changes by both parties. I am not ancestrally English and I am a minority in England too so I know ALL about cultural differences and adapting to different ways of life.

There are some excellent suggestions on this thread as ways to handle the situation, which I've taken on board so thank you

@SkedaddIe @Benelovencd you may not want to get up and help those younger than you,

At no point did I say I do not want to get up and help those younger than me - you are twisting my words. I said depending on which relative I would visit they could take offence to me standing up and helping myself because it is an obvious slight. If they are not as traditional then they would obviously do whatever is expected of me and help. I am adaptable to my environment.

I responded to @Skedaddle's points on his own culture as the discussion seemed to have moved on from your personal problem with your DH and it's similarities to my own and the focus being on women and how matriarchal my culture is.

I did not respond to your issue because I don't know how I feel about it nor do I have any advice as it is quite complex because most societies are patriarchal and this is not unique to African/Nigerian cultures and I am honestly not sure to make of some things I took offence to in your posts (agree with a few posts above critiquing some of your comments). I have no advice as I am not aware of the complexities and nuances that come with your DH's culture and hence have nothing to add as this issue is all relative for me, so I can't honestly gauge anything beyond even your father's expectations for his mortgage to be paid not necessarily even being out of order because these things require context and the issues of black tax.

I hope you and your DH come to the best solution for all of you. At least you both agree on what you find negative.