African father in law

PlainJaneSuperbrainthe2nd · 21/04/2021 14:12

My late FiL was also from an African country but with British citizenship. In his home country where he and MIL still have strong links, property etc there is definitely a very, very patriarchal culture where women serve the men etc (although women are still expected to earn money - they just have to do everything else too )

Anyway FiL was nothing like yours! He was all over my children, lively, caring - he did so much for others. I can't pretend he did loads of housework but would definitely take his fair share of household tasks I think. He could cook, was a great host. I think MiL was the higher earner and I believe he always told DH to marry a clever woman. He is much missed.

I share this because I don't think it is okay to blame all your FiL's behaviour on 'culture'. Yes I can see the roots of it might stem from that, but presumably he could do better if he chose. He is choosing to be a twat. I imagine your DH isn't like that or you wouldn't have married him so he managed to grow up as a decent man despite his father.

Ultimately your FiL sounds awful and I suggest avoiding him as much as possible- let your DH do the meet ups while you have some me time. I think it's highly unlikely he will change or see the light so let DH facilitate the relationship

Aprilshowersandhail · 21/04/2021 14:16

Ask him which culture endorses Twatism. Only have him over when your dh is home. Leave them to it. Take some time for yourself. I always found an Important Errand when ils came over. Less time with him =more time for you. He will see you smiling and think it's because of his arrival - no you chauvinist pig it's because I am going out...

NurseButtercup · 21/04/2021 14:20

Any suggestions as to what I can do to help FIL see the impact of his actions?

I wouldn't even attempt this - as suggested by pp let your DH do the meet-up with his dad. This is an excellent opportunity for you to have some 'me' time.

minniemomo · 21/04/2021 14:28

From personal experience it is partly cultural and partly generational (and partly just him!) Many African societies are quite patriarchal and what we would describe as old fashioned with men being waited on and certainly no child care, they also expect younger people to do what the elders say.

If difficult but I would simply limit contact to the necessary and take what he says with a pinch of salt

Original poster

Daftpink123 · 21/04/2021 15:55

@minniemomo

From personal experience it is partly cultural and partly generational (and partly just him!) Many African societies are quite patriarchal and what we would describe as old fashioned with men being waited on and certainly no child care, they also expect younger people to do what the elders say.

If difficult but I would simply limit contact to the necessary and take what he says with a pinch of salt

This is exactly what I dont want DS to grow up seeing and think that its ok to behave like this.

I'm all for taking advice from and respecting elders in a family and respecting other cultural traditions. But people who have a lack of care for others and treating DILs (younger people/women) as subordinates, I really struggle with.

DH is the total opposite to his father. I would love to be able to just ignore his comments and take it with a pinch of salt, but I really find it hard to ignore. I need to work on this as FIL thinks his behaviour is totally normal and rational. I guess I'm not used to being treated this way. My parents go out of their way to care for my siblings and I (even though we are all now adults) and for grandchildren so I think this affects me more and it makes DH feel worse that his father acts this way.

OP posts:

Sugarintheplum · 21/04/2021 23:19

I think it can be very ritualistic, and people find safety in these, comfort, even joy, when it goes against what they might believe in everyday life.

I have seen some kick-arse young African women play these kinds of serving and facilitating roles at family functions, usually to men who are their father's age. I think they see no harm done. I am interested, too, to see whether in 30 years time things will be the same. I think not, because I already see some of the younger men playing those parts (serving drinks, giving food etc at family functions).

I have children of both genders and I will raise them all to be in the kitchen if need be, serve food if need be etc. I won't have my girls serving my sons. I will teach them to observe the culture, but to maintain a healthy criticism of it because the entire point, I believe, is for each generation to progress. In general diasporic branches of cultures change slower than the original culture. A famous example is foot binding among the Chinese communities in Sam Francisco. Apparently it went on far longer there than back in those communities in China. So when people say 'this is what we do back home EVERYONE does it', sometimes it might actually be that it was done back home 40 years ago and in fact it is a little different now! But this is how we maintain links, connections and identities.

Just keep that in mind. You really don't need to be raising a doppelgänger of your FIL. There is no need for you to take on that expectation.

You can respect all of the good that a way of living has produced (your DH for example) while maintaining healthy critique of some of its other parts. It might help to try to look the positive in your FIL. At the end of the day he is not you DP and soo enough he does go home!

Redcart21 · 22/04/2021 08:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

madew13553 · 22/04/2021 13:54

Firstly, there is no “African culture” any more than there is “American culture”. It varies.

I don’t want to address the issues you raise individually as I do not know any of the people involved. I do know though that many in laws prefer to restrict their movement around their in-laws’ home to avoid “intruding”. I also know that many men, from many backgrounds do not feel comfortable asking women personal questions. What you call dictating he may see as contributing to discussing your child's development.

I think that you should have a cordial conversation with your FIL and ask him how he grew up and what it was like. That will not change his behaviour but may change your perspective.

Congratulations on your new baby!

Yoshinori · 22/04/2021 14:13

Why are you generalising the whole of Africa?

African this African that?

Africa is a massive continent.

I doubt someone would come on here and use “ European Fil this and European Fil that”. They’d probably be specific.

Gross.

maggiethecat · 23/04/2021 11:47

@Yoshinori
Are you similarly offended by the terms western/eastern culture?

I understand that people would rather not be lumped into one big demographic but I can also understand the ease of use.

As a Jamaican woman I don't know if I would be offended by the broadbrush term 'Caribbean culture' to refer to a practice/behaviour observed in islands other than mine. Or the corollary. Maybe, depending on what the practice was.

I would say however that there are traditions/behaviour etc that are common to many of the islands. Being respectful and even deferential to your elders is as common in Jamaica as it is in Barbados, Antigua, St Kitts, Grenada etc and for example, a child back chatting an adult is likely to be shot a look or a 'box' in one island as much as another.

I imagine that there are behaviours and customs that are very similar between a number of African countries based on colonial history/religion/proximity etc and think that the OP when cautiously using the word 'culture' may have been asking if FIL's behaviour was recognisable.

finefatmama · 24/04/2021 17:07

Lol, he sounds like my dad. Are you married to my half brother by any chance 😄

Agree with part cultural, part generational, part arseholery. Dad being some sort of high chief back home doesn't lift a finger much and his mum had loads of domestics back in the day so he's rather entitled.

The first child usually belongs to the family and on thier side, they take the saying 'it takes a village to raise a child seriously'

I strongly recommend you invest more time understanding this 'culture' that your DH accepts but which seems to annoy you so much as I suspect you may have differences of opinion which will emerge as the kids grow older.

And most importantly, African is not a country so please be a bit more specific when you can. Even tribes within the same country can be very different.

SelkieIntegrated · 24/04/2021 17:10

Take the chair out of the sitting room!

finefatmama · 24/04/2021 18:07

@SelkieIntegrated

Take the chair out of the sitting room!

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/04/2021 18:14

Firstly, there is no “African culture” any more than there is “American culture”. It varies.

And countries that are geographically close can be very different. I found Kenya quite difficult with a lot of sexual harassment and general male awfulness. Uganda, right beside, I found vastly less so.

I mean Switzerland and Italy are very different!

Yoshinori · 24/04/2021 18:31

[quote maggiethecat]@Yoshinori
Are you similarly offended by the terms western/eastern culture?

I understand that people would rather not be lumped into one big demographic but I can also understand the ease of use.

As a Jamaican woman I don't know if I would be offended by the broadbrush term 'Caribbean culture' to refer to a practice/behaviour observed in islands other than mine. Or the corollary. Maybe, depending on what the practice was.

I would say however that there are traditions/behaviour etc that are common to many of the islands. Being respectful and even deferential to your elders is as common in Jamaica as it is in Barbados, Antigua, St Kitts, Grenada etc and for example, a child back chatting an adult is likely to be shot a look or a 'box' in one island as much as another.

I imagine that there are behaviours and customs that are very similar between a number of African countries based on colonial history/religion/proximity etc and think that the OP when cautiously using the word 'culture' may have been asking if FIL's behaviour was recognisable.[/quote]
No because to be completely honest people are far more likely to lump Africa into one group.

e.g. going on holiday to Africa or she's African where if she was French they would say French and not European.

So there.

I don't think you can compare a huge continent like Africa to a much small collection of islands.

debbrianna · 25/04/2021 10:12

Where I grew up. Avocado is fruit and not considered food. You eat it the same way you do mongoes or bananas with the exceptions of those meant to go with food.

Lumping africa together is wrong here becuase of tge difference in culture.

How is behaving, from other people I know is not very different. They never lift a finger to do anything. I have come across some cultures where cultural laws are in place to stop women being treated badly by having 2 to 6 months of not lifting a finger. Other people in tge house hold have to do this. Unfortunately, this has to fall on other women and it only works if you leave in the same compound.

The most older generation are not very loving and I find they try to show this in grandchildren. I don't think this applies to african grandparents only.

With regards to the grand parent, you would have picked up on his views previously. How you are finding out now is a surprise. How you expected them to suddenly change is very naive of you. You can solve the problem by letting your husband do the heavy lift by servicing his father. Unless you are already doing everything around the house and it's the father in law you have issues with.

Original poster

Daftpink123 · 25/04/2021 14:48

@Yoshinori you are right, I should have been more specific. I actually purposely wrote African as I had been informed that if I stated the country, that could be even worse as I would be singling out that culture and it would come across worse. Maybe thats not the case then. Its Nigeria.

@finefatmama do you think this behaviour is OK? And would you accept it from your DH/expect your own children to be treated this way too? I am just interested to hear a view from the current generation. When we had my parents and him over for Christmas one year, my parents helped us cook all morning (as everyone in my house normally chips in and we have fun doing it together), and FIL sat in the lounge all day and waited to be served. My parents found it so rude, we now cant have both families together for occasions.

@debbrianna of course I knew he doesnt lift a finger. But I didnt know it was this bad until DS came along. Also we didnt need as much support before DS as we do now so it is now more apparent.

OP posts:

Original poster

Daftpink123 · 25/04/2021 15:01

@madew13553 @finefatmama I have spent years understanding the culture and still continue to do so. I am not naive at all and understand the root of some of the behaviours. Things just seem to have become far worse since DS was born. There is also some element of having to adapt mindset, behaviours and ways of living when living outside of the home country and as generations progress and possibly when family members marry outside of the "culture". Look at indian people- they have really adapted to the British culture and integrate well into society. Not that FIL has to do any of the above, its his choice.

In my house, women do not exist to serve men. Women and the young are also not subordinates. DH is in full agreement with this too. FIL can act how he chooses, which I cannot influence. However in my home, I wont allow him to act like that. DH and I have agreed, he will only come over when DH is around

OP posts:

debbrianna · 25/04/2021 15:47

OP sadly people like him don't change. It's the children brought up somewhere else yo motherland who will have a different mindset to whst they gave before. Funny thing is all my older uncles can cook, clean and do everything to help out. But I have also noticed thry can act stupid with their wives.my grandmother taught them better. She didn't want them to rely completely on wives but, the culture or the need to take advantage and be king of the household seems more important. Just to clarify this is from seeing some people in my family and extended. Interestingly, the only ones to have the best families/stable are the ones whose wives don't let them get away with shit. Rant over! 🤷

finefatmama · 25/04/2021 16:16

Sadly, the full extent of the cultural divide is not usually experienced until you have kids.
There are tribes in my country I would not marry into because of the traditions and that includes my dad's. They have strange ideas about monogamy and fidelity in marriage - only applies to womenfolk.

There are other parts of culture that are not easily picked up if you have never realised how different those cultures are. Things like collective identity, collective responsibility, family means extended family and the nuclear family isn't really a thing in some places, power-distance relationships and hierarchy, traditional gender roles, preservation of traditions over future orientation etc. These and the history of the tribes are more important than learning about food, language, festivals etc if you have family members still steeped in their culture.

I to think we'd made progress and told a friend of mine I was so proud he'd relocated back home from the US and would be a beacon of excellence in matters of gender equality. He asked why on earth would he fight a system which works.so Well for him and guarantees him an advantage after years a a minority in the USA. I was disappointed but had learned something. And this conversation happened at his wedding party.

As long as you and DH agree on how to deal with his dad and HE sets and enforces the boundaries. It could be an ongoing conversation as the kids navigate their own racial identities and preferences.

If they have a clan culture and your FIL sees himself as clan chief and commander, let father and son have the conversation with their shared frame of reference

There are some books written by mixed race folks you might appreciate like Natives and Brit(ish) by Afua Hirsch
Good luck. Your DH sounds lovely and supportive

finefatmama · 25/04/2021 16:50

@Daftpink123, we have a saying - if like soap you try to make men clean, like soap you dwindle in the act. Lots of behaviours are unacceptable and I used to try to challenge them to the detriment of my mental health. Also my dad is a shrink and a narcissist. That's too much skill to take on 😄. To paraphrase book I once read - he's like a bowl of hot soup, approach slowly from the side and take small sips.

It probably doesn't upset me as much because I grew up around it. I knew what I wanted in a partner and from my kids and chose accordingly. Grandparents seem to be there to preserve tradition and instruct thier kids on how to parent accordingly not to be pals with you or your kids. Once you embrace the suck, you can begin to play bullshit bingo, develop your stock responses and most importantly, lower your expectations in certain matters. You're giving them too much headspace.

In my opinion I have great chats on the phone with on his birthday, Christmas, Easter, New year, when we visit in summer, any family events where we happen to meet and from time to time when I need professional advice in his area of expertise. Hugs, kisses, selfies, updates on how well his grandsons are doing with bullet points on things he can go and brag about to others, eat, chat, kissy kissy bye bye. I really enjoy those chats.

Good fences make good in laws

maggiethecat · 25/04/2021 17:55

@finefatmama
LOL - words from the wise!! 🤣

Lndnmummy · 25/04/2021 20:18

Congratulations on your baby. Maybe going against the grain a little and probably not something for now if you are tired with a baby etc but for the future perhaps? Hear me out. He is old. He has lost his wife. He is showing love and interest in your son in the way he knows how. Through a lease from another culture, another generation, and another country. Maybe not in the way you’d have liked, but he shows it. Cross culture love and family blending is hard. Especially with a baby. He is maybe holding on to things like culture and what he is used to for comfort. Have your tried showing him interest and ask questions about his childhood? Show an interest in the early years of your husbands life and so on? When I first met my mother in law many many years ago now we had some culture clashes. It was really hard. I bit my tounge plenty of times. But she is my dh’s mother so I had to make it work. I was humble. I was respectful. I showed an interest. I made an effort with things that were important to her. I’ll never forget when she asked if I’d washed my chicken and I’d no idea what she was on about. Never made that mistake again. And I know that my friends would shake their heads in disbelief at some of the things. It’s traditional, and not always how I’d do things. It’s hard for me to explain this but I accepted my place in the family hierarchy. I treated her like her children do, as the queen of the castle. And I have had so so so much love in return. My children have had so much love in return. 20 years on we are incredibly close. She has nursed me through childbirth and PND twice. When she was ill with Covid it was me she wanted to care for her. Maybe she wanted to test me a little in the early days. Maybe she was worried I’d take her son away from her culture, and the things that were important to her. She was worried that my children would be “white middle class black children” with “white people hair cuts”. She is still observing their hair now at over 80. I’m going on. But sometimes kindness, patience and inclusion goes a long way and perhaps now is one of those times?

GrumpyHoonMain · 25/04/2021 20:30

@Daftpink123

I dont know if this is the right forum for this but I dont know where else to post it. FIL is African born but UK citizen, DH is born and brought up in UK. I am not African. I am really struggling with FIL and DH keeps telling me its just culture but now I'm thinking "culture" is more of an excuse and I cant stand FIL behaviour anymore.

FIL is so arrogant and lazy. When he comes to see DS1, he sits down immediately and doesnt get up again until its time for him to leave. He wants me to serve him his food to the sofa, take his plate away for him, even I have to give him DS- he wont even go and play with him, DS has to go to him. The world has to revolve around him. FIL keeps telling me, he wants me to have more kids so I can grow "his" family. When I was pregnant with DS and we first told him, all he said repeatedly for months that he was going to be a grandfather. Never once asked about how I was doing in pregnancy, or asked how he can help us with preparing for a baby etc. Its always about him. When he comes over to ours, he sits there on his phone until I give him DS. When DS runs away, hes back on his phone immediately. He even sits there with a headset on the whole time. When he came to see DS the first time he was born, he expected me/DH to make him dinner ( I was 3 days post c-section). He didnt bring us any food or asked if he could help us in any way- not that he needs to help or bring food but the thought would be nice. He then got upset at DH as we werent going to his house frequently enough with the new baby (he lives an hour away and its so hard to travel with a newborn in the early days). We told FIL he is welcome at ours anytime to see DS but he refused to come for a while as he expected us to go to him all the time. Last time he came, as soon as he walked in, he said DS looks the happiest with DH and DH is his favourite parent. It made me sooo angry.

Now he keeps dictating how to bring up DS. He tells me which clubs he wants DS to attend eg football club. But he expects me and DH to pay for it. He makes snide remarks when I told him DS doesnt eat chilli yet and when he saw DS eating avocado for lunch, he pulled a face and remarked why we are giving him that type of food- I have no idea whats wrong with avocados. When we didnt name DS the same name as him, all hell broke loose- how egotistical does one have to be to have a grandchild named after you! There are loads more examples.
MIL has passed away.

I'm sick to death of him and cant stand to see him anymore. Its got to the point, I secretly want DS to dislike him so we dont have to see him much. DH has tried talking to him but FIL wont listen and DH says he just doesnt understand my viewpoints at all. FIL now thinks I'm uppity and a "snowflake". DH feels torn and now I dont think hes doing enough to sort out his father's rude,,lazy behaviour which is causing so many arguments.

For African families out there- is this "culture" or am I right in thinking this is arrogant and lazy behaviour? Any suggestions as to what I can do to help FIL see the impact of his actions?

My Dad is Indo-Kenyan and exactly like this. Mum runs ragged after him and for a long time he didn’t even put on his own shoes - either gran or Mum did it for him. (I kid you not). The best way to deal with him is just to have no expectations. Dad is a good grandad but he became better as the gc got older and in his words ‘more interesting’ - and that’s the experience with most of his African born friends (both Indian and black) too. If he has money then expect him to randomly drop £50s when DS is a bit older lol. Dad and his friends all do this with DN to the point now where she expects it

Original poster

Daftpink123 · 25/04/2021 21:29

Thanks everyone for your comments.
@finefatmama you are right. I know I can only control my own behaviours so I need to mentally and emotionally toughen up and not let it affect me as much. DH is always telling me to let it go in one ear and out the other. I find it so hard though as I take the comments personally- when someone tells you the other parent must be your child's favourite, it comes across as mean and malicious as why else would they say that.

@Lndnmummy whilst I agree to an extent with you, it seemed your MIL was at least caring towards you, albeit you "accepted your place in the family". I have been showing interest in FIL for years and know all about his childhood and life. I think women are also very different to men. DH's aunts are incredible and have been nothing but supportive since I've ever known them. When they found out FIL wanted me to travel 1 hour in the car to his house 2 weeks post c section with the baby, they went berserk.

I know I will never submit myself to accepting a place in a hierarchy. Its not who I am or what I believe in. DH would never want me to do that either. He doesnt even do that.

@GrumpyHoonMain yep not going to happen here. FIL has told DH he expects me and DH to pay his mortgage and for his life going forward as thats whats expected by him. I thought he was joking but he's not. My parents very kindly paid for part of our home so we could save more money to send DS to prep school. FIL is annoyed we are not spending our savings on him . I'm not making this shit up.

OP posts: