Glass ceiling in NHS and other institutions

[Honeybee2021]

Has anyone climbed the ladder at work to be told they are “overqualified” or “we want someone who fits in” when aiming for that pinnacle position. I see this as subtle way of saying that we won’t hire you because you are black let alone female and black. Currently experiencing this on the NHS.

Would like to hear opinions

Sorry for the typos

Hi, Op. I've experienced this.

I've worked in the NHS for almost 20 years. Some 15 years ago, I'd applied for a position that I'd been covering for six months. Not to mention that, at that point, I'd done the same job, that I was applying for, for almost five years.

My manager encouraged me to go for it. But, even before I'd been told I didn't get the job, another work colleague congratulated me on this other position that I hadn't known I'd been slotted into. She was very red-faced when I told her that I hadn't heard back about whether I'd got it yet.

To say I was confused, is an understatement. Then it dawned on me that my manager had never intended to give me that position, but had told me to go for the original job, I guess so it seemed fair.

When I asked for feedback on what I'd 'failed' on (bearing in mind, I found out later that I was the only one who had passed the written test with no faults), I was told that it was because I had young children

At the time, I did not have the fight in me to take it any further, but I knew it was wrong. And I also knew it was based on my colour.

Some time after that, I was told of an incident (around ten years prior to me starting in the NHS) between said manager and a black employee, where the manager had been accused of racism. The outcome was the black colleague had left. But it had obviously left its mark, as everyone (except me) had known about it.

Anyway, glad to say, I am in that position now, although in a different tram. I am currently studying to work in a different field, but still in the NHS.

team not tram lol.

Based on somone I know who works in the NHS admin side of it. Not tge key worker side but those on boards, societies and decision making high up. Truth is they are very white especially the ones in London where you would expect diversity. What they do with non white applicants is offer shirt term contracts of six to one year. Most will leave before the end becuase people want permanent jobs but also the environment is hostile.
That's one one to boost diversity quotas.

The other is that most jobs before they are advertised, usually there is a person already allocated for it. Usually as away to move up. But becuase it has to be seen as open and diverse, everyone else applies with the hope of getting it when in fact its not that easy. Also, it's easier to move within the NHS than come from outside of . From hospital to health education or NHS federations.

The men also rule in the NHS and they can be viscous in regards to try and leave name behind. Most cases the jump on ideas and they are shit at.

This is everywhere, not just the NHS. It suits them to encourage us to apply, as it allows them to tick the box which says the shortlist, or those interviewed (depending on how far you get), were drawn from a diverse field.

I've just been passed over for a promotion, they went with an external candidate. The feedback relates to areas that I don't have access to, and would not have been exposed to explicitly, however the transferable skills are implicit, and should have sufficed. It'll be interesting to see what the successful person has that I don't, whatever it is, I'm pretty sure they'll be male, and almost certain that they'll be white

Let's say you are a big law firm and you find that lots of black people don't last but constantly move on. It is not the duty of the new black employ to tell you why others leave. To be able to ask that out loud is not nice. It just means you are not willing to look within your company but expect the new person to feel under pressure. Its not our jobs to sort your shit out. It's tiresome.

So I’m a medic, worked my way up through training and you would think that would mean you have access to the job you want because you are qualified right? Truth is jobs are far and few between anyway and those that do come out are 99% reserved for the typical candidate usually male, Asian or White, females sometimes but again you have to fit the bill so Asian or white. Often the jobs are created for a certain person in mind, again usually white male.

These jobs are what we call substantive so permanent hence why becoming scarce. Just seems really difficult to get a consultant post especially as a black female in my field if you don’t know anyone in the geographical area you are hoping for. Of course I’m hoping for in around London as I need to be close to diversity.

In my experience, when attempting to progress from within an organisation, this has been achieved via a mentor, who will advocate for you, help to open the doors to the opportunities and promote you to other members of the senior leadership team.

The other thing that you need to do is immerse yourself in the culture of the team where you want that senior role. Be seen, be heard and build relationships so that team members know you, like you, welcome you and respect you. In the private sector you would attend the networking events. In the NHS it's more nuanced. Say hello, engage in the innane chatter about last night's TV, holiday plans, the weather, eating too much chocolate at Easter etc. All of these things make a difference and apply in all sectors.

This is the layer on top of being qualified, knowledgeable and having the right skills and experience.

I hope this helps & makes sense?

Have a read of the comments section below this blog post:

www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2018/03/bme-representation-nhs-leadership

NurseButtercup (love the name, btw!).

I did all of those things that you mentioned, and more. I was very much liked/respected by my colleagues. It was our manager, at the time, who had the issue with me.

Gogetsalife

And that's what I would like to know, how do you burst through that ceiling.

As I mentioned in my original post, it seems that, even before I'd gone for the I review, my manager had already determined that I was not good enough for the job, and used the flimsy excuse about me having young children .

Oh, and when I did get onto that position, several years later, the amount of "oooh, will she be ready to do it" was deafening.

At this point, I had done this job for well over a decade.

With the team I am working with bow, they very much respect and admire me, as I do them. We get on very well, and the atmosphere is so much better, and positive.

Excise the typos

• excuse

@Gogetsalife

I’m v.senior in my field (PhD educated a prerequisite) and in the last 24 hours I been called ‘Mr’ twice (I am very feminine) and had someone try to enter my car whilst I waited outside my child’s sports practise (Covid restrictions) as they assumed I was a taxi driver (ever been picked up by an Uber driving a 4x4). When your skin colour continues to dominate how people treat you (with little or no respect) how do you bust through the ceiling .

Good god.

I just went shopping (I do it 7am every Saturday morning to avoid the queues, me cyan tek de queue dem) and as my DDs stood outside the car while I got the little one out of the seat a white man (around 35?) walked by and said 'excuse me dogs'. My DDs (aged 6 and 3) exclaimed 'dogs, dogs, why did he call us dogs'.

I told then I really don't know but isn't it sad when grown adults can't tell the difference between humans and canines. They agreed.

Was that racist? I'm going to ask DP what he thinks now.

Yes,a ll, the NHS is still using us to train people they can them promote ahead of us.

I'm heading out of the NHS and into FT private practice very soon, and I'll quadruple my income in doing so.

Right now I work 2 days in NHS because I believe in free and universal healthcare and it means I can work directly with those most in need and I know I am helping black people and women. But I'll not be exploited. I am also black and I am female. My Asian and female colleague has been at work 2 years and had NO training. Our white colleague (her supervisee) has been there one year and had around £6k (several days) worth. Soon the Asian supervisor will not be skilled enough to supervise the white colleague. Honestly.... (Asian colleague thinks it is racist)

@NurseButtercup
Not NHS but know what you mean about the inane chat. I’ll always be an outlier - am quite friendly but can’t be arsed with the soap reviews (don’t watch them) and am not interested in the latest daily mail chat, WAG gate etc.

@NurseButtercup
Not NHS but know what you mean about the inane chat. I’ll always be an outlier - am quite friendly but can’t be arsed with the soap reviews (don’t watch them) and am not interested in the latest daily mail chat, WAG gate etc.

I do have days when I struggle to refrain from yawning & rolling my eyes. But like you I haven't watched most of the TV programs my colleagues are watching. And I definitely don't read the tabloid press. So I encourage them to tell me about the hot topics/and or current TV story line and offer a neutral opinion or make the right noises.

Outside of that I stick to safe topics:
Diets - the ongoing weight loss battle,
holidays I've been on and where I'd like to go next. My best topic is fake tan which always throws them. I use fake tan a few times a year in between going on holiday and getting an actual suntan. LoL the moral of the story is we have to engage in the team culture if we want to progress.

@HitTheRoadJack2021

So what did you do differently to finally secure the position?

Good god.

I just went shopping (I do it 7am every Saturday morning to avoid the queues, me cyan tek de queue dem) and as my DDs stood outside the car while I got the little one out of the seat a white man (around 35?) walked by and said 'excuse me dogs'. My DDs (aged 6 and 3) exclaimed 'dogs, dogs, why did he call us dogs'.

I told then I really don't know but isn't it sad when grown adults can't tell the difference between humans and canines. They agreed.

Was that racist? I'm going to ask DP what he thinks now.

Blatant overt racism, and he's a pathetic weak little man throwing remarks at a woman and two young children. I bet he wouldn't say this to a man.

I'm sorry your DDs' are already experiencing this vitriol 💐

I'm sorry too, and for everything we are discussing here.

I too would like to know how to crack the ceiling without losing sense of self. It feels very fake sometimes to smile along and make the right noises in those conversations. Also, I get scared that soon enough they'll say something racist, so I do try to avoid banter at work. Makes me really uncomfortable.

NurseButtercup

I moved to a different team. I was treated differently.

@NurseButtercup

In my experience, when attempting to progress from within an organisation, this has been achieved via a mentor, who will advocate for you, help to open the doors to the opportunities and promote you to other members of the senior leadership team.

The other thing that you need to do is immerse yourself in the culture of the team where you want that senior role. Be seen, be heard and build relationships so that team members know you, like you, welcome you and respect you. In the private sector you would attend the networking events. In the NHS it's more nuanced. Say hello, engage in the innane chatter about last night's TV, holiday plans, the weather, eating too much chocolate at Easter etc. All of these things make a difference and apply in all sectors.

This is the layer on top of being qualified, knowledgeable and having the right skills and experience.

I hope this helps & makes sense?

This is true. But the mental gymnastics that you go through for trying to be perfect always left me mentally tired at the end day. My cousins are same and then exchanging the stories which are very similar. The harder you tried the better the outcome but the more it took out you.

I worked for an institution, not governments but adjacent becuase funding came from there. Most Higher roles went to public schools. They also had blind cvs. One comment was, if they want to hire you they will. The system in place didn't matter.

This is true. But the mental gymnastics that you go through for trying to be perfect always left me mentally tired at the end day. My cousins are same and then exchanging the stories which are very similar. The harder you tried the better the outcome but the more it took out you.

I agree, this is the experience of my friends and we all relate with the heavily used term "we are tired".....

I moved to a different team. I was treated differently

I guessed this was the case.

On the occasions when we tick all the boxes e.g. have more than enough qualifications (often overqualified), have the right skills, the right knowledge, the right experience, are good enough to train new colleagues, but yet STILL overlooked for promotion 'without a rational explanation'? Either make a plan to LEAVE or stay and become more resentful (or wait for somebody to retire). Definitely find a mentor ideally in the area where you want to work.

If it's covert racism you can't prove it.

You don't have to put up with the micro aggressions and I definitely advise to challenge this nonsense - but protect your mental health & choose your battles.

NurseButtercup

You've given some great advice.