I'm black but AVOID race topics at all costs. Anyone else the same?

[Dojasayso]

NC for this one as its probably controversial.

I'm a black woman who grew up in the white middle class countryside.

Growing up my friends were all white, my childhood sweethearts and even a lot of my immediate family such as stepdad etc.
I went to uni in a way more diverse city though.

Now as an adult, I have a professional career where my colleagues are 90% white, my partner is white and so are 95% of my friends.

I find my life to be so racially opposing on both sides that I hate race topics altogether. It really affects my mental health.

If the subject of race comes up such as BLM, meg and Harry etc. I just try and change the subject or give vague replies. My reasons for this are:

1. White people will never truly understand. So I find myself explaining and educating which is SO SO draining and I get frustrated and upset by the ignorance and denial.

1. I've seen people I love and respect say unintentionally ignorant things in discussion then get defensive when pulled up on causing tension. I've then never viewed them the same affecting my relationships with them in the future.

1. I end up somehow becoming the spokesperson for all black people instead of my views just being MY views, I don't want them taken as gospel and the view of ALL black people.

Then I also avoid race topics with other black people. You think it'd be therapeutic for me to speak to those who understand. But more often than not the opposite is true. My reasons for this is:

1. Due to my upbringing not many other black people have the same background as me so cannot relate. I feel culturally very different.

1. A lot of other black peoples inner circle is mainly black and not white people. So they of course work with and see white people daily at work and whatever, but don't have the intimate relationships with white people I do.

So I actually get offended by some sweeping generalisations made about white people when discussing race topics.

1. Black people are not a monolith. We are not a hive mind. Yet I find other people within my own race seemingly thinking we do which goes against the very racism we try to fight. I've been called 'oreo' and other terrible names by other black people. Because I like the opera, go to the horse races for ladies day, attend the odd golf tournament and love me some nickleback and dolly parton! It upsets me greatly because I want us to be seen as individuals nor stereotypes. I find that the 'white things' i enjoy are actually associated with the middle/upper class. Why do we mock each other for doing anything outside of our stereotyped box? Surely we should be pushing others of our race to expand our knowledge and experiences. It doesn't mean your not proud of your blackness. You just may also enjoy dancing to dolly patron whilst you get ready in the mornings or attending the odd rock gig.

1. Colourism and dysfunction. When previously dating, I only ever experienced Colourism when dating black men. When dating white men, I was black but that was that. I actually felt most conscious of my 4A hair type and dark skin when dating black men. My white exs and current partner have given me nothing but compliments. Its a non-issue.

Yet other black people seem to have a lot to say about black women dating out. Also in the black community dysfunction is completely ignored so long as there's 'black love' Also sexism and homophobia in the black community is rife. Its like stepping back in time. This goes against my personal values and ethics.

There are many other reasons why I avoid race discussions but those are the main points I think.

I've recently come to the realisation that every time I do enter any type of race discussion with either black or white people, I come away feeling drained and disheartened. It actually does affect my mental health.

I feel like I can't escape these discussions though. Its everywhere!! I wish I could just opt out but I can't. I can't sit back and listen to ignorant comments. But I haven't the mental energy to have the discussions either.

Does anyone else feel like me? I feel very alone. Like an outsider looking in to both sides of the coin.

I find this conversation uncomfortable because it sounds to me that you are saying on the one hand that black people do not have a hive mentality but then on the other you talk about how different you are to other black people as though they are the same, one big mass of people who aren't like you (you being more enlightened for example). There really isn't one black community of course.

I might be wrong and I might be picking that up because of my own biases and experiences.

The last time anyone tried to tell me I was not black enough was back in high school, and that was really I think, some other black children trying to figure out their own identities and what blackness meant to them given what they were being fed by the media. To my mind I was being entirely black by being top of my class, very serious about my education, anti-crime, completely uninterested in smoking weed and taking my time with sex because childish fun and games were just so much fun. I was sad some other children connected this to blackness. It's worth saying I know some of these people as adults now and we are all hustling our own way and not living 'stereotypical' black lives, so we all worked it out in the end. So I wonder whether there is an age0function to this. Are there 30+ year old black people seriously calling each other coconuts?

I will say though, if I met someone and they told me they have a white partner, only 1 in 20 friends is black (and they're good with that), they mostly socialise with white people and choose to live far away from any kind of black community, and because of their interests they think they are different to black people I would probably consider them to be a black person who wants to set themselves apart from other black people and that would be off-putting for me. I do believe there are black people who bask in whiteness and I feel differently about them. I don't really feel a sense of collectivity with them and they really might as well not be black to me.

I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just being honest. I might very well learn something here.

Are there 30+ year old black people seriously calling each other coconuts?

Wouldn't say I've heard 'coconuts' a lot nowadays but definitely the same mindset as those who say 'coconuts' and 'oreos' - you "act/sound white" or a white person "acts/sounds black", said in an accusatory or disapproving manner. Never mind where the person grew up, which would make it a cultural/environmental trait rather than race.

Sugarintheplum - I think (not saying this is applicable here) that some black people can definitely internalise negative beliefs about themselves, especially if they're living in predominantly white spaces. Trying to fit in can be a self preservation thing. The thread on here about 'not all skinfolk..' was a good example of that.

And now we have the diaspora wars online, same as rivalries that existed when my mum was growing up, so there definitely isn't one 'black community' - though sometimes it can feel as though there are gatekeepers trying to set the standard. I can think of a recent online discussion for instance when black people who'd grown up outside London were being discussed like Carlton from the Fresh Prince - uncool and not comfortable in their blackness! I was reading something on Twitter earlier about people not fitting into ACS at uni

I find your post really interesting and wrong circle of black people. Country music, ABBA, thr 60 mudic is huge in african house holds. Kenny Rogers and dolly patton are huge.

This post on general reminded me of ASAP Rocky. I have posted the link for anyone interested. He only came to his senses when he hot arrested in Sweden.

"a 2015 interview with Time Out New York resurfaced in which the rap star appeared to be unconcerned about police violence against African Americans. “I don’t wanna talk about no fucking Ferguson and shit because I don’t live over there. I live in fucking SoHo and Beverly Hills. I can’t relate,” he had said"

www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jul/21/asap-rocky-views-black-lives-matter-bill-cosby

• I do believe there are black people who bask in whiteness.

What a phrase! This is the problem right here

It’s interesting that black people hold “black standards” and the boat is rocked if you don’t speak or sound black are common issues I read on hear. Also if you want to be associated with a certain class it’s like black people are uncomfortable with this and then flip it around and start saying things like “do you think your too professional”.

I wonder if these “white standards” exist in the white community because from my understanding it doesn’t seem to be an issue within the white community if someone speaks posh or uses certain words or attends certain events..

I wonder if these “white standards” exist in the white community because from my understanding it doesn’t seem to be an issue within the white community if someone speaks posh or uses certain words or attends certain events.

I agree with your post but actually it does exist (re: the quote). You can even see it all over MN where people are harping on about posh, class, vocab, etc. They just don't use race but class instead.

I grew up in a family with a black sibling.
We certainly experienced micro aggressions as a family. We also experienced kindness and acceptance.
However, I now accept that I’m racist. It’s too exhausting otherwise.

As a fellow black 'middle class' person who has both white and black social circles, I feel that you're perpetuating something you're accusing others of.

You have spoken about black people critiquing your hobbies, homophobia, want to date outside of your race etc as though 'they' are a monolith, but I really do think you're not seeing us with same individual nuance that you're wanting us to see you with, and that you're able to see white people with.

I can't speak to your narrow experience of black people as its not mine, and I have a large personal and professional network of black people. As well as white people. Because of the work I do and the circles I'm in, on both sides, my networks range from millionaires to plumbers. The range of people that I interact with means I could never make a blanket statement like you have just made about anyone.

A bigger issue to me however is the fact that you're able to accept 'casual' racism from your white associates under the guise of ignorance. I have a large white circle that I can have race conversations with (albeit never as good as I can with my black circles) but I can assure you casual or overt racsim is not something I encounter within my 'friend' circle.

Honestly, this really needs exploring and I suspect you know that and this is one reason for you making the thread.

Avoidance is problemactic and I wonder what that signals and models to your mixed/black children.

Very interesting discussion. There are more ethnicities than blacks and white nd I wonder if this resonates more widely

It sounds like an immigrant experience vs. Y generations in on one hand. And a class one on the other. With race as a third factor.

Do you think East Asian, South Asia and Eastern European immigrants/ groups go through something similar?

Hmmm maybe I’m not the best to comment on the white community side. I have noticed that generally it’s a huge problem within the black community I don’t hear white people moaning about simple things such as “hair extensions” and pulling someone down for what ever clip ins they choose to wear... it’s no wonder the black community is divided this is the reason if you don’t fit the “black narrative” and live up to the standard it’s seen as incorrect!

@WellIsntThisA yes I notice the class issue but within the white community it seen as a positive unlike the black community if you speak a certain way your accent with be classed as “clear”. Why shouldn’t a black persons accent be clear though? Why is it making other black people feel some type of way? I don’t understand this mentality within the black community.

@OhShutIt that’s a really interesting point - you mention you have a wide network of different black friends. Perhaps it’s an outside looking in thing. Growing up in a white area I think I probably took on stereotypes. As I’ve gotten more black friends, I do see differences in interests. I think social media also really helps because it can bring people together (as well as being problematic) and I’ve connected with others who were ‘the only girl in the indie club’ as teens, and you realise there were lots of us in our bubbles feeling isolated.

@May17th the class issue is an interesting intersection too. There are definitely ideas of ‘not getting above your station’ or laughing at posh folk if you’re (white) working class, from experience of growing up with relatives who came from that background. On MN (and wider society) I think in lots of cases class is used as shorthand for race - kids names, good areas to live in for example. There’s probably a dissertation to be written on that 😬

Loving this discussion.

Definitely making me reflect inwardly regarding my views on seeing my own race as monolithic and therefore me as an outsider.

At uni I house shared with 3 other black girls one year. All from London apart from me and we all became good friends. But they did all have a collective black experience i did not have. They were a lot more aware of race than me which was kind of surprising as me being the only black person in white spaces, you'd think it would be the other way around.

I don't really think about my blackness unless I'm around other black people when it becomes apparent that my background is so different and I feel they are disappointed, if that's the right word?
When I talk about going to the gay clubs on a Saturday night and helping my friends muck out the horses during the day I can feel myself cringing as they look at me open eyed and confused. I feel like they are thinking "you think your white?" But maybe that's just my own issue. Infact it is my own issue.

Yes, I do absolutely think it's an outside looking in thing.

I have lots a associates that have been educated as minorities in their school environments.

That lack of seeing and understanding the nuance and difference among black people does impact on their ability to feel comfortable within themselves and among black groups at large.

I'll add, that for those who have wider black circles and that know white people who too have multiple black friends, there isn't that need to 'assimilate'. My white friends understand my black experience as part of my character, as I understand their whiteness as part of theirs. That showing of our true selves and respect for our mutual experiences means I do not hold on to friendships in which I have to bend to accommodate microaggresions and casual racism to maintain relationships.

@May17th

* I do believe there are black people who bask in whiteness.

What a phrase! This is the problem right here

It’s interesting that black people hold “black standards” and the boat is rocked if you don’t speak or sound black are common issues I read on hear. Also if you want to be associated with a certain class it’s like black people are uncomfortable with this and then flip it around and start saying things like “do you think your too professional”.

I wonder if these “white standards” exist in the white community because from my understanding it doesn’t seem to be an issue within the white community if someone speaks posh or uses certain words or attends certain events..

HI @May17th Please tell me more about my comment being the problem. Please also tell me what 'the problem' is. I'm not sure what you mean.

@Sugarintheplum may I ask, what do you mean by 'basking in whiteness'?

I am quite intrigued?

Talking about race is exhausting so I can relate to your choice even though mine has been different.
When I was young I did feel othered as you’ve described but uni was a great experience for me. I was able to build a great network of friends which is very racially diverse and international. I realised there that my frustration at feeling being called a ‘coconut’ had made me assume I wouldn’t find black people I could relate to. Regarding interests and values there are definitely black people who share yours. From ballet to MT I don’t think I’ve seen any performing arts in the last 10 years in which I was the only black member of the audience or there was no black performers. I’m Jamaican and I know so many people who love country music, there are a lot of links with reggae. With regards to values all the professional black women I know have striven to be lgbtq allies and this is across generations.

I’m really sorry you feel this way and I’m particularly sad you feel you have to tolerate racism, especially when it doesn’t seem like you tolerate homophobia, misogyny or ignorant black people who try to dictate how you should behave. I think you should expect more from your friends. I have very close friendships with white British women and they will never fully understand but they really try their hardest to educate themselves and unlearn stereotypes because they love us (their friends) and fundamentally do not want to add to our pain. As do my other friends of colour who grew up in homes with anti black racism.

@Dojasayso

Loving this discussion.

Definitely making me reflect inwardly regarding my views on seeing my own race as monolithic and therefore me as an outsider.

At uni I house shared with 3 other black girls one year. All from London apart from me and we all became good friends. But they did all have a collective black experience i did not have. They were a lot more aware of race than me which was kind of surprising as me being the only black person in white spaces, you'd think it would be the other way around.

I don't really think about my blackness unless I'm around other black people when it becomes apparent that my background is so different and I feel they are disappointed, if that's the right word?
When I talk about going to the gay clubs on a Saturday night and helping my friends muck out the horses during the day I can feel myself cringing as they look at me open eyed and confused. I feel like they are thinking "you think your white?" But maybe that's just my own issue. Infact it is my own issue.

I really think you should read "black-ish by afua Hirst" if you hsvnt already. Two black people can co-exist with different perspective on race, wealth and social economic factors. She explores this really well by including a black lawyer friend she met. Her experience of serena and Venus staying at their house when they started coming to Wimbledon. I can never recommend this enough. Interesting I understood both type of blackness from a diferent perspective. Working class african family vs middles class Oxford educated mixed race female.

It's a funny, joyous and sad but informative book about growing up in England. A battle ground of race and class.

I debated on whether or not to join this conversation, as it wasn't clear whether you were looking only for people to agree with you, or to hear about their contrary lived experiences. I decided to contribute when I saw others expressing similar thoughts to the ones I had about this.

I know exactly where you're coming from on this topic @Sugarintheplum and agree with some of what @OhShutIt said.

The vast majority of my family and close friends are Black. I have one very close White friend, who I've known for over 30 years (I've talked about that friendship on BMN before), and we have a surface level relationship, which suits us both.

My main friendship circle is full of Black doctors, solicitors, bankers, head teachers and accountants. We own our homes, and are all earning very good salaries, the majority 6 figures, given our professions, and the length of time we've been working. We encourage our DC to work hard, but also to take pet in extra-curricular activities. If we were white, you'd call us middle class.

All of us are second generation, our parents came here from various parts of West Africa. Depending on where we grew up, some have Home Counties accents, some lean more toward slight South London. No-one is ridiculed for sounding white.

When not in corona times, we all take part in these so-called white pursuits, some of us ski, holiday in expensive places, go to the theatre, and National Trust properties, as well as being members of Black churches, attending Black parties and mentoring younger Black members of our communities to do well.

I don't have any problem discussing race, as a dark skinned person, the first thing anyone sees when I walk in a room is my skin colour. Secondly they see I'm a woman. These are defining characteristics of mine, and it doesn't bother me speaking about either one. Do you feel uncomfortable talking about being female (if you are) in the same way?

Due to my work (finance), I am regularly in spaces where I am the only Black person. It doesn't cause me any particular stress, though I can see people wondering what I am doing in these meetings until I start speaking, then they realise.

OP, it sounds like you would benefit from exploring why you choose to set yourself apart from Black people. Black people are all different, so I wouldn't expect everybody to be the same.

The fact is, no matter how many white friends, family or acquaintances you have, you will always be Black, and it sounds quite stressful to ignore that, or to pretend it doesn't make a difference. It reminds me of when people say they don't see colour. The casual racism which you don't feel able to challenge in your circles WILL be having an impact internally. You yourself have said being in that environment affects your mental health, which doesn't surprise me at all.

Sorry to the op. I got the whole title wrong. 😬 I have just posted a link. Sorry to the author if she was to ever come across this thread 😔

www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1112508/brit-ish-/9781784705039.html

@Dojasayso I find it really interesting that you say you're more conscious of race around black people than white. I'm extremely hyper-aware of race when I'm around white people. Though sometimes at the hairdressers when all the ladies are talking in patois I feel very out of place. I definitely relate to you saying that your uni friends had a collective experience. I feel that way about my Nigerian friends who have shared anecdotes and experiences that I can't relate to as someone with extremely mixed family and an unusual heritage (family were here well before Windrush, so a different dynamic).

As I've gotten older and more confident, I absolutely would challenge 'casual' racism. Actually, I feel that expression is a misnomer, as challenging someone's worth on their race can never be casual IMO, and I think it can have a violent reaction on mental health.

On the subject of mental health, I've found exploring this with a counsellor to be really helpful. Also, I know everyone is different, but for me reading about this and joining black networks at work has been a godsend for my mental health - connecting with others who have the same experience makes me feel I'm not going mad or being paranoid in picking up micro aggressions. But I agree that it is exhausting, and sometimes it feels easier to shut things down - I've had to avoid some of the Meghan and Harry discourse this week for example.

To me whiteness is a type of exclusionary (racialised) privilege, and it is the social force which casts 'blackness' as less than, particularly that black is of less value than white.

Some black people feel they have accessed these kinds of supposedly rarefied spaces and do turn and look down upon black people and/or believe they are different or better than them.

Separately, and I won't comment any further, I am imagining the conversation between a black person talking about mucking out with another black person they don't really know:

I'm not so surprised that would be met with a wide-eyed look. I do think the average Brit might give that look to anyone who talks loving hours riding. Most people aren't getting down with some stable management on the weekends because it's not geographically, financially etc accessible. We also know that systemic racism prevents many black people from getting paid and equine pastimes are not inexpensive. So yes, in the UK those kinds of activities are mostly done by white people with spare cash. This isn't because black people wouldn't show more interest if they had the chance. My understanding of black people is that whenever we do gain access we do very well, despite oppressive forces keeping us down. This is the logic side of things.

Emotionally. Well, I do think that if you start talking about things you are very much aware most black people can't do even if they wanted to (and that most black people aren't doing it) but you do not show any sensitivity to that in your conversation the other person might feel belittled, or detect a haughtiness and they might try to make you feel some discomfort too. What do they have to hit you with? You're not black. That doesn't mean you aren't. It means the conversation has taken a turn for the worse. I'm not saying that's ok, but I think it happens.

You're both till black. It's just that you are both still human, too.

Yep I get you OP
I’m mixed race but Adopted both my parents are white - they are literally colourblind and really just wanted children regardless of race .
So I Grew up in a very middle class white area where I was one of 2 maybe 3 black / mixed race kids in the school
Went to an excellent grammar school
Husband is white
All my friends are white although the majority of them are with black men and have mixed race kids
Have a lovely house ( ex council ) but no mortgage and relatively wealthy for my age
I have only been to Jamaica once
I can’t cook rice n peas - well I can’t cook full stop
I can’t remember ever suffering from racism from white people or if I have I haven’t noticed it or recognised it as such .
However any racism I have picked up on has been from black people for not being a “typical” black /mixed race woman being with a white man and not knowing how to cook rice n peas - 😂
But I can’t even cook a roast dinner so it’s not a race thing 😂

Oh and I had a pony and then a horse as a child growing up 😂 I spent most of my teen years mucking out and riding
I love reading and going to the theatre
But I also like a good night out in a club listening to some old 90s hip hop n RnB
My adopted sister who is also mixed race had vicious bastard spaniel instead 😂
My adopted brother who is also mixed race had bmx bikes and motorbikes
were were all taught how to drive and given cars when we passed
Given deposit for houses
Both of us are married to white men
My brother is married to a white woman

My sister is a wicked cook though

But my upbringing was completely different to my husband who was pretty much dragged up through the care system but has done very well for himself

@Sugarintheplum thats a lovely post. Very accurate and not an aspect that I've thought of before.
I have 0 doubts in my mind that white people view me anything other than black. Even if I married bill Gates, became a lecturer of medicine and cured World cancer, I'd still be blackedy black black to white people. I have no delusions about my blackness.
I feel comfortable in my own blackness on a personal level, but maybe not in a societal level to to the intersectionality that others have spoken about.
I would love to be able to meet other black people I feel as close and intimate with as I do with my white friends without any judgement or expectation.

I do think maybe I should reach out to find black people that have similar experiences to me of being raised untypical areas. I do not want to subconsciously view my own race as 'othered' from me. I guess I view both white and black people as 'othered' and me as on my own and not fitting in anywhere. Thats why I don't like to talk about race. My black experience is unique I guess so I have little people to relate too.

@Grinch48 thanks for your post. I relate to everything you've said. Even down to a white working class partner. Mine was raised on the roughest council estate in England. Hes done very well for himself in life. A typical white working class rough and ready bloke.
He actually helps me braid my hair and holds down my fro for me when I'm trying to put on a lace front . He literally just sees me as doja!

I have a best friend who is also Black who grew up in an extremely wealthy home and has had a completely different and privileged life in comparison to me. We connect on so many other things and not for one second would I dare think she was "not Black enough" because she is in totally different class to me. OP I reckon if you really dug deep enough you'd find that there are Black people from a wealth of backgrounds and experiences. There are Black Girl Gamers to name one off the top of my head, some posters above has said they like going to the opera, those who love solo travelling, honestly sooooo many experiences out there. I have not heard the word coconut being used since I was a child! I would be very surprised at anyone using that term now.

Even having worked in schools, the young children understand and are accepting of African kids, mixed Black kids and west Indian kids who may have been in the UK since before the Windrush. There are so many experiences that mean there isn't any particular type of Black person. Initially from your post I got the vibe that you were saying that yes youre Black but not thay type of Black, and that was a bit sad for me. However after reading your responses I take that back.

I dont want to talk about race either tbh. Day to day in my house, im just me!! Sadly, race is something you can't avoid especially when living in a majority white country. When I see racism, no matter how big or small I will call it out. I've done this on behalf of young people in school and I've had to do it in the workplace. I obviously don't enjoy it but I believe if I dont say anything it will continue, especially in the form of casual racism or being insidious in nature. I dont care if the person is my close friend or partner, I won't stand for ignorance. It's 2021, there is so much literature out there for people to still be ignorant to racism.