Martians 2014, thread 11. KEGELS!

[LyraSilvertongue]

Shiny new thread, ladies :)

Neither of mine would take dummies!

..also, how does one know how much milk has been taken in one sitting from the breast? Will I just know?

You know what's rubbish? The fact that I've been looking forward to this weekend all by myself. But now the hormones are making me horrendously paranoid that DP hasn't called yet. I've fabricated a whole affair in my head and now can't get it out

It is difficult to answer the "what's wrong with crying" question without sounding patronising in a "wait until you have kids" way. It's really hard to describe the actual physical ache of hearing your baby cry! And tiny babies are not clever enough to be manipulative enough to cry for no reason; even just wanting a cuddle is a good enough reason for them to cry. It is instinctively what they want and need and quite right too. But usually crying is due to:
-hunger
-wind
-tiredness
-too hot/too cold
-trying to do a poo (! Sounds silly but it is really distressing for them at first!! Sometimes just even a little tummy massage or rocking their legs back and forth can help them with the, er, process)
-teething pain
-they see a scary shadow
-they have an itch and are unable to co-ordinate arm movement to deal with it
-they sneezed and it scared them
-they hiccuped and it hurt

and so on. Honestly, it sounds ridiculous but they are absolutely hopeless when they are first born and all they know is that they need their mum to survive. So when women say they can't put the baby down, this is often what they mean - your sole purpose, especially at the beginning, is to make the baby feel secure and safe, because it can't do it for itself. I've had friends who have had to put unsettled babies down so they could go to the loo/have a shower etc and the baby cries so much - even in that short time - they make themselves sick. (the babies do that is, not the mums!) And what's so hard is there is never any guarantee the baby isn't in pain, particularly when tiny, because their gastric equipment is frankly shit until they get a little bigger.

re: waking to feed - I'd never wake to feed at night; that is insane to me! DD wouldn't take a dreamfeed so she got her nightfeed whenever she woke, usually around 2ish. She went straight back to sleep and so did I so no problem. Babies are supposed to sleep lots at the beginning (apparently... ) so some women just leave theirs to it when they are kipping in the day. I let them sleep for up to 3 hours max in one nap during the day, or if my boobs were about to explode and it had been up to 4 hours since last feed.

Sorry that was MAMMOTH!!!

PiratesMam Don't have such a break between posting next time. Your advice is splendid and I know none of this stuff!

If the breast feels empty (you will get to quickly know the full feeling and empty feeling) and soft and baby is satisfied you know they have had a good feed, plus plenty of wet nappies means they are feeding well.

When people say their baby won't be put down they mean baby cries and won't settle. It is really hard to hear baby crying, you just want to make them feel better!

Dd had a dummy because she so wanted to feed, but she couldn't due to her awful tongue tie, so she wasn't satisfying her sucking reflex by being fed by syringe. The dummy helped that until she could latch on. And she looooved her dummy, I thought I would never get it off her but we didn't have a single tear. Ds had one because I could not handle the crying for a moment longer, yes I'm a weak and wicked mother! I don't know if we will use one this time, it all depends. But I would rather use a dummy than baby suck its thumb. You can take a dummy away!

Oh thanks Hot - for a moment there I thought I'd killed the thread!!

Waking to feed: ds always woke regularly to feed so I never had to wake him. Dd was such a sleepy baby I had to wake her or she never would have fed and I would have had tits like boulders.

My DS still has a dummy (at 2.5!!) which I hate but it's only for bed, and he doesn't have any other comforter like a Teddy or anything, so I am letting him keep it a bit longer. DH doesn't really want to let the new baby have one but I honestly think it saved my sanity so I'm happy to offer one again!

Pirates, thanks for your views. I know this is my first baby but I am determined not to be baby-led. Excessive night feeding is not something I wish to encounter if I am to retain my sanity off these antidepressants. The only reason I am leaning towards Gina Ford is that she tries to establish a good daytime feeding pattern to avoid night-time feeds at 1am, 3am, 4 and 5am. She believes that in order to establish a good milk supply the baby needs to be fed little and often after the birth. The success of the Contented Little baby routines depends on the baby being woken for feeds and not being left for long spells between feeds.

She recommends that in the very early days a three-hourly feeding routine be established (this time is calculated from the beginning of one feed to the beginning of of the next one). However, she says if a baby is demanding food before the recommended time then he should be fed. She goes on to say that if this continues long after the milk has come in then 'it is important to look for reasons why your baby is not lasting longer between feeds'.

The aim of the CLB feeding routines is to ensure that when baby is ready to increase milk feeds, you structure his daytime feeds along with his daytime sleep. This will mean that, as soon as baby is physically and mentally capable, he will sleep his longest spell in the night not during the day. This is all I am looking to achieve from GF's book

My babies would not be woken for feeds. I could get them to half-awake at best but they'd be too sleepy to feed. Don't count on it being possible with your baby, Pram. You won't know till he or she is born.

Yeah defo load 'em up during the day, it does work in my vast experience of two kids! You'd be pretty unlucky to get a nocturnal baby but it does happen. Also lots of people I know who really got on with the GF routine did as she was optimistic with the speed with which she stretched out the feeds, eg their 3 month old might still be on the 6-8 week routine in terms of feeds. Doesn't make any difference long term, because as you have identified the basic principle doesn't change.

1. When women say 'my baby won't be put down', what do they mean exactly? What actually happens when the baby is put down? I don't understand. I think they mean that whenever they put the baby down the baby screams their head off but is fine once they are picked up i.e. there is nothing "wrong" other than them wanting to be held.
2. Why do some women feel it's wrong to wake a baby for a feed? Why are some women happy to let their baby sleep vast amounts during the day, knowing this will result in a wide awake baby at night? I don't understand. I don't understand it - at my antenatal classes they made out it was really bad to ever offer a baby a feed without them obviously requesting it and I didn't understand that either.
3. What is so wrong with a baby crying? Don't babies sometimes cry for nowt when they are put down? I think there are differing schools of thought on the impact on a baby of being left to cry vs not being left. It also depends on the baby - as I said before DD1 would do a "registering an objection to being horizontal" cry every time she was put to bed but it was obviously not distress so I don't think there was anything wrong with leaving her. But DD2 has never cried unless there is something actually wrong (i.e. it is always genuine distress communicating a need for us to do something) so I think that it would have been wrong of us to leave her to cry.

"how does one know how much milk has been taken in one sitting from the breast? Will I just know?"
You don't know and you don't need to know exactly how much but you can tell whether they've had a good feed or not and their behaviour will show if they are full or still hungry.

"She believes that in order to establish a good milk supply the baby needs to be fed little and often after the birth. The success of the Contented Little baby routines depends on the baby being woken for feeds and not being left for long spells between feeds."
I totally believe that that is a factor in why neither of mine lost weight after birth and it is one of the best pieces of advice I got from her - I started off waking for a feed after three hours if they hadn't done so sooner then after a while went up to 3 1/2 overnight and then four overnight and then went onto her suggested daily routines. I have plenty of friends who would leave their newborns for eight hours without a feed if they didn't wake for them.

And where does feeding at 1am, 3am, 5am and 6am come from? How many babies really do that?

Lyra you just reminded me that my DS was jaundiced at the beginning, so I was supposed to wake him for feeds every 2 hours - even at night- as it helped the recovery. It was impossible! He was soooo sleepy.

I don't think my two would have woken fully if I'd dunked them in iced water They really loved their sleep. DS2 slept for up to 20 hours a day in the first couple of weeks. I had to keep checking that he was still alive. He was just a very sleepy newborn.

Pirates that is such a helpful post for 1st time mums (and I wish I'd known half of that with my first!). DD1 used to cry a lot and it took me weeks to work out that it wasn't hunger/nappy/pain etc but tiredness due to over stimulation e.g. visitors waving toys in her face, jiggling her around on their laps, cooing in her face etc etc. With DD2 I didn't over-stimulate - just let her sleep more during the day and she responded by sleeping more at night too. I agree with the not going too long between feeds though - but with BF it's almost impossible to go longer than 4 hours otherwise your knockers will explode!

Today had been rubbish Can I whinge please? Yes? Ok

DP and I went out for an anniversary lunch but he was quiet and withdrawn throughout, hardly saying a word. It was quite embarrassing sitting there in silence like two people who have nothing to say to each other.

The reason for his mood is XP. Yes, him again making everything shit. DP and I were out with the children yesterday evening and I arranged to meet XP at the station as the boys were going to his house for the night. DP stood back but not far enough and when XP clocked him he went ballistic, shouting and making a scene in public in front of the boys (he has form for this). He made some really nasty threats and promised to make our lives hell (like he hasn't been doing that already).

His problem is be doesn't like "another man" spending time with "his" children and has been trying to brainwash the boys into thinking DP is a "bad man". Luckily they're old enough to make their own minds up and they both like DP and are comfortable and relaxed in his company.

I'm feeling sad that our day has been ruined by XP. Also guilty that DP is having to deal with all this shit because he's chosen to be in a relationship with me. He's done nothing wrong yet has to deal with XP treating him like shit. I think he's had enough. He's got other shit to deal with and doesn't need my problems adding to them.

He didn't come home with me this evening. He's out drinking somewhere, drowning his sorrows in beer so I expect he'll be feeling even more morose when he comes home.

I just want to have some kind of happy life after all those years of misery with XP but he just won't let me. And because I have children with him, I can never be free of him. It's so utterly depressing

Rant over. Sorry for moaning.

I never had the DS sleeping too much problem, even at the start. He always woke well before the supposed nap time should have been over - the only feeds I had to waken him for were the dream feed when he was always completely out. It really used to worry me as sleep is essential for brain development but he just wasn't a sleepy baby.

Even now he gets by on less sleep than others his age.

So, this time round I'm getting a sleepy, non reflux, independent baby. That's what I've ordered anyway.

Oh Lyra, I don't know what advice to give you for the best. That is just miserable.

Can you set conditions for him seeing the boys i.e. he can't behave like that or you will withdraw contact. I guess you want the boys to see their father. How do they react to that kind of behaviour?

I certainly think you need to try and talk it through with DP to see what his feelings are. Perhaps if he can get it off his chest he will feel better.

Thank you so much, BWP, for such a lengthy reply and thank you, too, to everyone else who is sharing and being tolerant of my questions. I promise I am also reading stuff other than GF! Can I come back to this topic tomorrow with more questions or will everyone else be getting sick of it? Do let me know.

Now then, lovely Lyra. Your ex-DP is never going to change and you can't forever feel guilty for the fact that he occasionally makes your loved ones feel awkward or inadequate. If your current partner loves you, Lyra, he will see that this is nothing personal against him and that your ex is just not right in the head. The answer is not to slope off and get pissed. You need him after an episode like this and you will only get through this monster's fits of bullshit if you face him together.

When we meet people in our forties I always think they had better have a fucking good understanding of the fact that we all carry baggage from previous relationships and past lifestyles. Your baggage is a jealous and rather unhinged ex partner. Yes, it's unpleasant and no, your current partner should not be made to feel like some leper. But between you life can go on and a better life can be built. Him getting leathered down the pub drowning his sorrows merely presents you with an extra burden, doesn't it? Tell him you need to feel he's on your side and fighting with you, not taking umbrage at every onslaught delivered by your silly bastard of an ex. Big hugs, love - get him told.

Jolls, I'm sorry I'm late asking but how are you feeling now? Have you heard from him yet? Where has he gone this weekend?

Lyra, your ex sounds like a complete shit. I'm afraid I don't have any advice as I have never been in that position but what I can say is that kids get older and start to form their own opinions. My eldest DSD already knows her mum is a fruit loop and makes shit up. I really feel for you and hope things get better for you. In the meantime, have these in lieu of a massive one of these .

On the subject of routines etc I am currently doing quite a good job of not thinking beyond pregnancy so haven't even thought about what to do when the baby gets here. I am now officially terrified!!!!

Finally managed to get back in the kitchen and cook again. Spaghetti Bolognese with a mountain of uber garlicky garlic bread. I never knowingly under-cater!!

Me too Coolhand. I defo ordered that this time. And he/she will arrive with less fuss than last time please.

BWP and Pirates great posts - and chimes with my experience.

Lyra, that is shit, sorry. I hope you get chance to have a good chat with DP and remind him of all the good stuff. Maybe work out a way to minimise XP's ability to interfere in your relationship, so horrible for you

Ooooh I forgot to tell you guys about my consultant appointment yesterday. I am under consultant care due to EMCS last time - although I'm not sure I'm 'high risk' because I don't have any other risk factors. Anyway, the consultant was good. Knew her stuff, clear and confident if a little bossy. Said I could have an ELCS which would happen at 39 weeks, or VBAC. She did say that if I went overdue she would suggest an ELCS at an earlier than usual stage because induction increases risk factors for scar rupture. She was supportive of my plans for VBAC, but I said I wanted to keep options open and decide nearer the time which she was also fine with.

She listened to my points about the antenatal care I had last time - never saw the same MW twice - and how I felt this contributed in that noone picked up that DS was pretty big or back to back. She said there was little they could do about the back to back position as babies often moved during birth anyway. But she has booked me in for an extra scan at 35 weeks to check the baby's size (yay! Extra scan ).

So all in all I'm pretty happy.

panto what an awful experience, and even more so when you have an extra layer of worry to cope with. Hope it goes more smoothly from now on.

Pram - he's up in Hull at a chess tournament with the kids at the local chess club and a few other adults for the weekend. I am well aware of how boring he sounds right now!

In my head however he's off fucking his ex.

I've had a text but no call. So I'll be ripping his fucking head off tomorrow. Despite knowing I'm being paranoid and unreasonable, I'm still pissed he didn't take 5 minutes to call his pregnant fiancé. Not even when he went for a cigarette.